Online 3D Fighter

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KTallguy said:

By being online enabled, VF would have to do one of two things. Either:

1. Eliminate all possible lag from a match.

2. Make the timing less strict and more loose.


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#1 will be the ideal situacion.
#2 will never happen considering it will be a big difference between offline and online play. It would be Virtua fighter hardcore champion vs Virtua fighter baby sitter in training wheels.


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Many of Akira's moves need to be done with strict timing. If there's a little lag, and the input is delayed, then the entire rest of the move won't come out in VF4EVO. Double or triple throw escapes that need to be rapidly entered in a small window won't work if there's a spike. Yes a player can compensate for the lag. Indeed yes. However, lag spikes can still possibly ruin multi-part moves, AND in real play with real people, their timing will be off.

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I agree. for the most part, these problems would only occur if there are constant problems with Lag. If sega can come up with an online code that can limit The amount of lag that will effect gameplay, alot of these problems wont occur.

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changes the timing involved with the game, so you'd have no way to get a rhythm while playing, because one time the timing would be one way, and on a laggier server, it would be another way. If you get used to playing with a little lag, and you play someone IRL, your timing will be off.

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This problem can be softened by choosing who you fight. If Im not mistaken, In online games you can choose who you want to play according to how well the performance of the game will be. Usually players with bad connections have a red status bar and players with good connections have a green status bar..or some type of similar set-up.

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If hardcore VF players have their combos ruined by lag, they WILL quit, I don't doubt it. They don't even have to be killed by scrubs. They'll just leave.

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So you speak for everyone? There are Hardcore players within this very thread who said they will like to have online play and know of the risks involved.


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They wouldn't want their timing and rhythm thrown off by lag. Even so, it's not difficult to tap buttons with Jacky, and if a skilled player who is trying to kill a scrub is interrupted by lag, they'll never play online again.

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You conducted a poll with all the hardcore players and this was your finding? Come on now. Lets be honest, this is how you feel and YOU simply don't want your game messed up by lag. This thread can be accessed by any of those hardcore players you speak of and If they feel this way, they wont be shy and not speak up about it.

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Itagaki has been quoted as saying that DOA isn't meant to be a tournament fighting game. I'll try to find it but I don't remember where it is, regardless the amount of people that play DOA for tournaments is too small to really care about.

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Please Do find this. I dont see Why he would say this n turn around and have his company Sponsor tournaments for the game(they are sponsoring another tourney As I type)

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1. Why should people who have put a ton of time into a game be forced to re-learn the game. Let VF5 do that.

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We're talking about an online enabled Vf, im not focusing on a vf4 online game but an online Vf game in the future.

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2. You honestly think that online play, in a game with such tight timing like VF, will make you better. Unless lag is eliminated, A: your moves will come out late, B: your moves that require strict timing (catch throws, combos) will not work.

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What other choices are there for the American gamer(or any gamer outside of Japan). There are not many evo machines, people would have to pay alot of money to travel around and still not get to the level of the Japanese players(because Japan has an abundant amount of competition that is constantly evolving and varying).

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Sure, maybe. But why be completely handicapped in real life after playing online all day. If you really want to come down to it, there will probably end up being people who either play online all the time, or play offline all the time. Guess who's gonna win if they play eachother offline? And guess where tournaments are held?

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The handicap is not too different from constantly playing Vf4 ver. C and transfering over to Evo. Playing the game with little competition is a bigger handicap than playing the game online. I doubt Fans will spilt up between the online players n the offline. True Hardcore players would still meet in person to play, just like FPS and RTS players who play online n when there is a tourney they play Lan style.

 

Played Tekken 3 online against Catlord? God damn that's nice - dude is like a freakin legend /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Tekken 3 has online play? How?

 

Re: People are People.

Hey Kiwe, Now Im going on a Doa Rampage....Im bored n I need something to do. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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KTallguy said:

Wow... ok ... wait ONE second... so more costumes and expanded arenas = a better game? Wow, I'm sure they are really sweating the whole 'improve the gameplay bit'. Which is why this game is rehash.

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Ummm Do you know what your talking about? The Costume thing is not something I would call a gameplay enhancement, but the changing of the environments is a big deal. Alot of doa strategy is based off environmental positioning more so than Virtua fighter. Any change with the environments will cause change with the gameplay. This is not simply with the shape of the environments but also the slippery surfaces(which change hit and stun properties completely), stage breaks, pillars, walls and danger zones. Thinking the expasion of the environments as frivilous is foolish. But since its not a big deal in Vf4, I can see why such a mistake was made on your part.

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I'm not particularly qualified to say this as I am not a complete expert on DOA, but I'm willing to guess that the enhancement between DOA2 and 3 wasn't really a big step in evolutionary gameplay, as it was a step in boobie bounce physics and the quality of the glass that is broken as you fall out a window.

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So your guessing that this is so, but dont have factual knowledge to back it up...hmmm thats very cute. I remeber the days when Vf was talked about as the crappy fighter compared to games like TK, its seems that history is repeating its self.

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Good 'remakes' actually change the game fundamentally. Look at MGS: Twin Snakes? They could have released that last year but they spent a LONG time refining the gameplay to match and even improve upon MGS2, included tons of easter eggs, and re-did all the cutscenes, voice acting, etc. I call that a worthwhile remake.

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This is great, you know hardly anything about the game, n its already a crappy re-hash. Doa ultimate is being redone completely. The stages are completely redone, The game intro has changed, cutscenes have been expanded upon and or changed, an Hour or so of extra footage explaining the relationship problems of kasumi n Ayane, new endings,new costumes, Some of Doa3's gameplay have been added..ie the side stepping , a copy of the sega saturn doa1 is being included, online options, trading Cards /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. There is nothing rehashed about the game...and if it is, its sure better than the thousands of Capcom remakes that add less than10% of what tecmo is doing with DoaU

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I've already outlined why I think DOA online will suck in my previous posts.... I try to form my opinions based on logic, not predjudice.

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I think you need to try harder.

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As for the actual gameplay, I had experience with DOA2 and 3. It's just ... after you play VF, playing DOA again feels like a step backwards.

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I wonder how much experience you had with them, I see alot of people pretend they know something about a game, but it end up being a bunch of bullshit. anyways, who cares its not like if DoaU is a success you will clap for joy.

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Maybe I'm just bitter because I feel like VF is a better game, and I don't like how it's not popular. It makes me feel like the gaming population is stupid and can't think, so they play a game that's easy to play.

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These players are actually the opposite of stupid. They realise how much time you need to put into Vf and choose to play games that fit around their Schedule and provide instant gratification. Am2 realised this and this is why they added all these extra modes into vf4.


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Then again, DOA isn't necessarily a bad game for people who just want to have fun, but I cringe when people claim to play DOA competitively.

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hmm, I suggest you never visit my site or anyother Doa affiliated establiment. I just realised something...Vf gets alot of the same reactions.

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I hope that they do some balancing when they put it online, or we'll have tiers establish themselves quickly. It'll be like Tekken 4 all over again.

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How exactly would you know this. I thought you were'nt
"particularly qualified". Did you make an elaborate ranking thread amongst all the characters which is futher investigated by an abundant amount of match data? I dont think so.

Im done with my official Doa rampage... Oh by the way Kiwe.. My pic in my avatar has both a Doa character and a VF Character if you haven't noticed. Any way If DoaU is A Success, I truely hope Am2 does the same for Virtua fighter. IMO Doa is closer to Vf than anyother fighter n if Doa can do it, I believe Vf can do it aswell.

 

Re: People are People.

since my rampage has ended, lets say for arguments sake Am2 makes the next Vf game online enabled, how many of you will play it? N how many of you will not?

I for one will play it, and if I like it I will continue playing it.

 

Nice one.

Hah! Knew you couldn't hold yourself in the end /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

What I'm more curious about when it comes to DOA Ultimate is that a big, major, secret has been promised that hasn't been disclosed of. Do you know anything about this? Btw, I'll kill them if arcade style reversals aren't an option as in DOA3 (that and Evo:s 1 memory card load are the biggest fuckups in recent fightinggame history)...

P.S; DOA fucking sucks as compared to VF hands down but it can still be enjoyable (but I'd rather play both SC2 or Tekken over it) but yeah, I have noticed you have a pai on your pic aswell (in the back!) lol /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

If anybody speaks pure BS about DOA and you have a DOA site ofc you should speak up, that's not a discrete PR tour (like some of the things you have done imo) that annoys me at all - that's just plain sanity and something you should do.

Painty_J (as you now call yourself); Why are you asking me about Tekken 3 online play - you put me on your ignorelist after sending me that nice privmail remember?

/KiwE (Spammed forward complete multithrows in DOA2 by just jerking the joystick without knowing the inputs at all)

 

Re: Nice one.

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KiwE said:

Hah! Knew you couldn't hold yourself in the end /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Yeah ya Know.....Im bored n this thread has become vf is the best while all other fighters are crap thread.

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What I'm more curious about when it comes to DOA Ultimate is that a big, major, secret has been promised that hasn't been disclosed of. Do you know anything about this? Btw, I'll kill them if arcade style reversals aren't an option as in DOA3 (that and Evo:s 1 memory card load are the biggest fuckups in recent fightinggame history)...

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I do think they will be bringing back the arcade style holds n the damage that came along with them.

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P.S; DOA fucking sucks as compared to VF hands down but it can still be enjoyable (but I'd rather play both SC2 or Tekken over it)

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/versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif, I know you would say something like this /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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but yeah, I have noticed you have a pai on your pic aswell (in the back!) lol /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Of course, thats where she belongs /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif...J/K. I had the full Pai image but only half of the Lei fang pic, so I put Lei in front . I'll probaly make a better one with both right next to each other.

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If anybody speaks pure BS about DOA and you have a DOA site ofc you should speak up, that's not a discrete PR tour (like some of the things you have done imo) that annoys me at all - that's just plain sanity and something you should do.

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ya right



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/KiwE (Spammed forward complete multithrows in DOA2 by just jerking the joystick without knowing the inputs at all)

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You need to teach me that considering how players can buffer in the next command before I get a chance to spazz..Im starting to think Doa is too hard for me...I should go play bloody roar /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

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My Quote:
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If hardcore VF players have their combos ruined by lag, they WILL quit, I don't doubt it. They don't even have to be killed by scrubs. They'll just leave.
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So you speak for everyone? There are Hardcore players within this very thread who said they will like to have online play and know of the risks involved.


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I speak from experience. How many hardcore CVS2 players bought an X-box to play online, and then got shafted? I'm sure if you play CvS2 online now you'll find REALLY good players, right? Same situation. Unless lag is completely obliterated, no dice. I guarentee it.

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Playing the game with little competition is a bigger handicap than playing the game online. I doubt Fans will spilt up between the online players n the offline.

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I don't doubt it. Look at CvS2. Why the hell would you want to ruin your timing and your gameplay. Even if you don't have access to people you know, there are sites like this that help you find people. If you can't find someone, shit, VFEVO has the best AI (and training modes) of any fighting game, period. There are people who have gone to tournaments that haven't played too many real people, but they still kick some ass. You think those little bars next to their name are going to mean that exactly the same lag will be applied throughout the entire match? Keep comparing fast paced fighting games to RTS, that's a terrific analogy. Really.

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Doa ultimate is being redone completely. The stages are completely redone, The game intro has changed, cutscenes have been expanded upon and or changed, an Hour or so of extra footage explaining the relationship problems of kasumi n Ayane, new endings,new costumes, Some of Doa3's gameplay have been added..ie the side stepping , a copy of the sega saturn doa1 is being included, online options, trading Cards . There is nothing rehashed about the game...and if it is, its sure better than the thousands of Capcom remakes that add less than10% of what tecmo is doing with DoaU


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Wait wait! The graphics are better? Costumes? Cutscenes? Trading Cards?! The INTRO to the game is different?? WOW!!!! OMG!!!

...

Who gives a shit. Honestly. I like story in fighting games, but when it comes down to it, cutscenes and story aren't as hard as programming a new fighting engine. The core of the game is rehash. The stages effect gameplay, but really fricking minimally. Oh wow, so they make a stage all pretty, and they set special zones. That, again, sounds like a ton of work, MUCH more than coding a new fighting engine. Right? I can hear Team Ninja's Board of Directors cackling over everyone who's going to buy it.

And I love how people diss Capcom. Yes, they make rehashes. But their games are played competitively all over the world. They also take a lot of chances and make quirky, experimental games, like Viewtiful Joe and the upcoming Killer Seven.

The reason why I said I'm not an expert of DOA is because I don't play it on any serious level. But I've played DOA2 and DOA3. The changes in the fighting engine are minimal at best. Yes there are changes, NO they aren't groundbreaking. The only thing that's groundbreaking is the quality of the graphics. I want to reiterate that I've played both games many times, although I haven't played them in any competitive kind of way.

I also notice that fanboys (not that you're one) tend to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about without backing up their claims with any kind of evidence. Please, if I'm wrong, tell me about the groundbreaking gameplay or fighting engine enhancements that happened between DOA2 and DOA3, and will supposedly happen between DOA3 and DOAU. I'll be happy to eat my words. While you're at it, dig up that tier rating for the characters in DOA, and show me how balanced the game is. Of course, you have to have match data, which doesn't exist.... because...

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These players are actually the opposite of stupid. They realise how much time you need to put into Vf and choose to play games that fit around their Schedule and provide instant gratification. Am2 realised this and this is why they added all these extra modes into vf4.


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Ok... I don't play VF a ton. I play it maybe once or twice every two weeks. I have a full time school schedule and I'm involved with groups on my college campus. I'm not great, but I'm not shitty. I can do good strings, mix it up, and occasionally I get a throw escape in (although this is my achillies heel) I can techroll, that's for sure. I have one or two friends that play, tops. When they come over, sometimes we play (*gasp*) other games. Our life isn't VF, but we still recognize it as being something worth putting time into. I like calling it fast paced chess =)

I'm sure DOA takes plenty of time to master. Someone who plays games competitively probably runs out and gets DOA right away, right? And since you've obviously put a lot of time into DOA to be so confident about your knowledge, didn't you just label yourself as stupid?


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My Quote: Then again, DOA isn't necessarily a bad game for people who just want to have fun, but I cringe when people claim to play DOA competitively.
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hmm, I suggest you never visit my site or anyother Doa affiliated establiment. I just realised something...Vf gets alot of the same reactions.


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Tell that to all of the Japanese players. Oh yea, I forgot, the US is the most important country in the world and if we think something, it's totally correct, right? Overall, the number of people in the US that play fighting games competitively pales in comparison to Japan and Korea. Compare the amount of DOA tournaments to Virtua Fighter or even Tekken Tag tournaments. Yea... DOA is really being taken seriously as a competitive fighting game. Uh-huh. Look at the following! The legacy! Top DOA players battling to the death!

As I said this earlier in the thread, the amount of people playing DOA competitively is so small that it warrents no attention from the gaming community.

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who cares its not like if DoaU is a success you will clap for joy.

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No, it's not that. I study game sales. DoaU will be a success, especially in America. People will buy it. And since developing it probably wasn't as hard as developing a brand new game, they'll make more money. Who knows, maybe they'll use that money for something constructive.

 

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KTallguy said:

I speak from experience. How many hardcore CVS2 players bought an X-box to play online, and then got shafted? I'm sure if you play CvS2 online now you'll find REALLY good players, right? Same situation. Unless lag is completely obliterated, no dice. I guarentee it.

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1) CvS2 wasn't buit from the ground up to take advantage of xbox live, This is the main reason for the very poor results. Unlike Capcom, Tecmo is working with the creators of xbox live to create a smooth system to allow DoaU to play very well in an online setting.If Sega does the same thing as tecmo, Im sure it will be way better than what capcom did.

2Hardcore CvS2 players dont need online capabilities to have decent comp. You can practically go to any arcade and find an Arcade machine or two with players surrounding the machine, the same cannot be said for Vf4evo.

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I don't doubt it. Look at CvS2. Why the hell would you want to ruin your timing and your gameplay. Even if you don't have access to people you know, there are sites like this that help you find people.

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These sites can only help for only so long. The amount of people that hook up here are no where near the level it is in the Japanese virtua fighter scene or the Street fighter scene here in america. Online will allow players the same amount of competition or should I say on hand experience that other Main stream fighters are enjoying. Your view doesnt take into account the matches that will flow perfectly(or semi perfectly). Only the most extreme cases is when lag will ruin your gameplay experience.


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If you can't find someone, shit, VFEVO has the best AI (and training modes) of any fighting game, period. There are people who have gone to tournaments that haven't played too many real people, but they still kick some ass. You think those little bars next to their name are going to mean that exactly the same lag will be applied throughout the entire match?

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1)Playing the computer is nothing like playing a human opponent and you should know this. No matter how good the Ai is, Playing the computer cant prepare you for all the mind games and set-ups a human combatant provides. Online play can provide this missing element thats not available when playing the CPU.

2) The bar is an indiaction of how good or bad the connection will be. Players who are so concerned with lag (like yourself) can use this to minimize lag effecting your play.

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Keep comparing fast paced fighting games to RTS, that's a terrific analogy. Really.

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I know it is, Than you /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Wait wait! The graphics are better? Costumes? Cutscenes? Trading Cards?! The INTRO to the game is different?? WOW!!!! OMG!!!

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LMAO. What I considered a good remake is similar to what you have stated:

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Good 'remakes' actually change the game fundamentally. Look at MGS: Twin Snakes? They could have released that last year but they spent a LONG time refining the gameplay to match and even improve upon MGS2, included tons of easter eggs, and re-did all the cutscenes, voice acting, etc. I call that a worthwhile remake.

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Who gives a shit. Honestly. I like story in fighting games, but when it comes down to it, cutscenes and story aren't as hard as programming a new fighting engine. The core of the game is rehash.

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Its a rehash just as much as MGS:twin snake. Both have simialr story lines to its original incarnations, Improved gameplay, new intos n cut scenes, and extra fluff.

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The stages effect gameplay, but really fricking minimally. Oh wow, so they make a stage all pretty, and they set special zones. That, again, sounds like a ton of work, MUCH more than coding a new fighting engine. Right?

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Oh you mean minimally like in virtua Fighter, Square rings with either breakable or unbreakable walls, short walls and high walls or no walls at all...Yeah I see all the strategy and set-ups there. Since your so used to seeing environments in that manner, Im not suprised you see environments as nothing but minimally effecting gameplay especailly when its not a major factor in Vf4's gameplay.

Unlike Vf4, One of Doa's biggest gameplay elements are the environments, With higher emphasis on environmental awarness and strategy. There are many different walls with altering properties/effects, which dertermin what type of wall set-up you'll be using.Also,There are stages like the forest where you have to be aware of the positioning of not only yourself in relation to your opponent but also with the trees(obstacles), undulated terrain, walls, and Slippery surfaces. There are innumerous amount of different strategies that can be conjoured while playing in stages like the forest, Snow storm, beach, Azuchi..etc with just the environments.

Slippery Surfaces Alter attack properties similar to that of an attack changing properties from a normal hit to a MC hit.Slippery surfaces have there own seperate modifications from a Counter blow and a High Counter blow in Doa. Just like You have to learn of all of the modifications with a MC hits in Vf4, in Doa you have to learn of all of the modifications with a slippery surface property change. This is another major example of how the environments effect play more than minimally.

On Average Doa Characters have more knockback attacks than those in Vf4(Which ensures the environment will be used more often).One element of being a strong Environmental character is having more knockback attacks and knockback attacks that knock you back the futherest,(the amount of knockback is described in meters and is shown in Doa's framedata guide)This is not only to knockback your opponent, it is also used as a spacing tool.

Environmental link:

http://pub18.ezboard.com/fdoastrategyfrm13.showMessage?topicID=43.topic


Stun Link:
http://pub18.ezboard.com/fdoastrategyfrm13.showMessage?topicID=16.topic

If you Have any questions I would be happy to reply.

 

Just for the record: It seems that the general consensus is that the only fighting game we all agree that sucks is Tekken, right?

I actually liked DOA2:Extreme or whatever it was called, and was pissed when the 3rd went to XBox.

Oh well, you can't have it all.

 

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The reason why I said I'm not an expert of DOA is because I don't play it on any serious level. But I've played DOA2 and DOA3. The changes in the fighting engine are minimal at best. Yes there are changes, NO they aren't groundbreaking.

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The changes From doa2 to Doa3 are not revolutionary, but any dedicated doa fan can see how the changes that were made altered the game drastically. Since we're talking about gameplay changes, What exactly did vf4 do realy differently than Vf2 & vf3 that makes the shift revolutionary?


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The only thing that's groundbreaking is the quality of the graphics. I want to reiterate that I've played both games many times, although I haven't played them in any competitive kind of way.

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If you dont play the game competitively, how would you know the changes and their effects were minamal. I for one is a dedicated player and see how the changes made to the game alters the way its played.

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I also notice that fanboys (not that you're one) tend to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about without backing up their claims with any kind of evidence. Please, if I'm wrong, tell me about the groundbreaking gameplay or fighting engine enhancements that happened between DOA2 and DOA3,

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Hmmm, what changes were Made.

1. 4 new characters

Christie -> Snake Fist
Hitomi -> Karate
Brad Wong -> Drunken Kung Fu
Hayate -> Ninjitsu

Adding New characters is an evolutionary step, but as you know, Depending how well a character is implimented, the way you defend or attack shifts.


2. New moves + Tag throws

The new tag moves and throws added alot more set-ups into the tag game making tag mode much more deeper.

3. New arenas + new Tag arenas

Environments make a huge difference in Doa like I mentioned in my previous post. Multi faceted environments like the forest adds a whole new strategic experience.

4. Reduced counter hold damage

People complained about how much damage the reversals do, so they Toned them down while taking away the extra command.

5. Increase counter delay

In Doa3, you cannot counter repeatedly as in Doa2, Meaning there are pauses in which you can take advantage of.

6. Advanced counters (Using arcade counters for some characters)

These reversals not only have the original commands, but also have the original damage. These Reversals have different set up properties aswell. The extra reversals and properties give the charcters who have them more reversal options.

7. Greatly improved sidestepping

There are characters that are given Vf style Side stepping abilities which are faster and more effective than Free stepping.

8. Air throws for some characters

Air throws add another element to the combo system and the grapplers aresenal. Most air throws are slam throws that cannot be techrolled...kinda like in Vf4 ver.C. A good player Can link An air throw with a ground throw if the opponent does not roll in the right direction.

9. Ground throws for some characters

Leon in Doa2 had this, but The ones they added in doa3, allows for slam throw mixup games, and set up throw games.

10. Death is now possible from fall damage

This may seem as something minimal, but death after a fall is fairly big. In Doa2 you can still regain the match after a fall with no energy, but in doa3 you have to be even more concerned when being hit though a stage break(umI think its called heightenedenvironmental awareness).

11. Different stun properties for moves

This is a natural evolution. But with the change in surface stuns properties, Counter blow properties, high counter blow properties and stuning a stunned opponent properties...lets just say there is alot to re-learn

12. More sloped terrain too, with deeper slopes, allowing for more damaging juggles

Knowing this can help you get more damaging combos, and everyone knows how every little hit counts.

13. A wall stun that they can't DH out of, enabling you to get a free hit in

This adds more wall stun (variation)potential..which can lead to devistating combos.

14. Many knockdown moves now flip over in air juggles, giving the aggressor more time for strategic placement after knockdowns, or even free down attacks since the opponent can't techroll after the flipover

This is big considering how placement amongst the environment and the opponent is very important in Doa3.

15. There are alot more high/mid/low mixups in strings

You may think this is nothing, But this allow players to mix up there strings and make it harder for your opponent to reverse you.

16. The basic movement is different, d and u and u/b initiate free movement instead of ducking/jumping, this combined with motion tracking that isn't as good as doa2 means you can sidestep (most) oncoming attacks

This Changes the game for a skilled opponent. This allow you to break away from the hold/attack/throw game or the stun/throw/attack game.

17. More environment effects such as snow covered ground

This practically changes the whole juggle/stun/fighting engine.

I think Im done for Now.

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and will supposedly happen between DOA3 and DOAU. I'll be happy to eat my words.

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I guess we have to wait n see.

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While you're at it, dig up that tier rating for the characters in DOA, and show me how balanced the game is. Of course, you have to have match data, which doesn't exist.... because...

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Lmao, NO you need to show me the data on how doa is unbalanced. I did'nt claim wether the game was unbalanced or not...but YOU DID. I know the game is no where near the level of being unbalanced like Tk4, because We doa players actually discussed the game indepth just like you guys.

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Ok... I don't play VF a ton. I play it maybe once or twice every two weeks. I have a full time school schedule and I'm involved with groups on my college campus. I'm not great, but I'm not shitty. I can do good strings, mix it up, and occasionally I get a throw escape in (although this is my achillies heel) I can techroll, that's for sure. I have one or two friends that play, tops. When they come over, sometimes we play (*gasp*) other games. Our life isn't VF, but we still recognize it as being something worth putting time into. I like calling it fast paced chess =)

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And? You cant measure your life to everyone elses life because you dont know every persons circumstance nor do you know each persons level of enjoyabilty. I happen to not play Vf4evo more often because Im busy playing Doa and building up my site, along with going to school full time, going to work partime, and I squeez in any and everthing else I can.

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I'm sure DOA takes plenty of time to master. Someone who plays games competitively probably runs out and gets DOA right away, right? And since you've obviously put a lot of time into DOA to be so confident about your knowledge, didn't you just label yourself as stupid?

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LMAO... This is what I said:

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Quoting myself

These players are actually the opposite of stupid. They realise how much time you need to put into Vf and choose to play games that fit around their Schedule and provide instant gratification. Am2 realised this and this is why they added all these extra modes into vf4.

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Do you see what I have in Bold, I said these players are the opposite of being stupid, Meaning Their decisions were just. Im so confident in my knowledge of Doa that Im willing to say that Doa is just as deep and the majority of the techniques used in Vf4 sans the Multi-throw escapes are possible in doa and require just as much skill and precision.


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Tell that to all of the Japanese players.

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They all should visit my site and learn something(and im not trying to be cocky either). I was at the I love Vf tourney, and after the tourney I had a chance to eat dinner with some of Japan's finest. We were discussing fighting games and I brought up Doa(That was a once in a life time chance to ask one of the best in Japan about his views on Doa3). Heruru was the person I talked to. He gave many reasons(personal) reasons for why he likes n dislikes Doa3.What suprised me was when He said Doa was a 2d fighter and SS was useless(ie had no side stepping abilities). He gave some deluted example of Jann Lee's (dragon kick)tracking baymans +(evasion roll). I have a vid up of me SS that attack and alot of others. If he can miss out on all of the SS abilities in Doa3, I wouldn't be suprised of the other things he over looked. I respect the Japanes and I love them as a people(and Heruru). but dont just think because they are godly in Vf4 and other fighters they will know their shit about Doa.


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Oh yea, I forgot, the US is the most important country in the world and if we think something, it's totally correct, right? Overall, the number of people in the US that play fighting games competitively pales in comparison to Japan and Korea. Compare the amount of DOA tournaments to Virtua Fighter or even Tekken Tag tournaments. Yea... DOA is really being taken seriously as a competitive fighting game. Uh-huh. Look at the following! The legacy! Top DOA players battling to the death!

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You can make fun as much as you want, but as we speak the Vf scene in america is not all that good and your living off of the Japanese legacy. Your whole argument is based off their success, and you cannot see how much in common both Vf4 and Doa3 have in the states..But atleast a venue is being made for the doa community, and were taking advantage of it at doacentral.

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As I said this earlier in the thread, the amount of people playing DOA competitively is so small that it warrents no attention from the gaming community.

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So what keeps vf afloat out side of Japan? Lets be serious, Vf4 is in the same boat as Doa in America. The only difference, Vf4 in america has all of its match data recorded and doa does not. I know this because I have direct relationships with those who played in Doa tournaments and I interview them and I happen to have a cuople of interviews posted.

 

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They all should visit my site and learn something(and im not trying to be cocky either). I was at the I love Vf tourney, and after the tourney I had a chance to eat dinner with some of Japan's finest. We were discussing fighting games and I brought up Doa(That was a once in a life time chance to ask one of the best in Japan about his views on Doa3). Heruru was the person I talked to. He gave many reasons(personal) reasons for why he likes n dislikes Doa3.What suprised me was when He said Doa was a 2d fighter and SS was useless(ie had no side stepping abilities). He gave some deluted example of Jann Lee's (dragon kick)tracking baymans +(evasion roll). I have a vid up of me SS that attack and alot of others. If he can miss out on all of the SS abilities in Doa3, I wouldn't be suprised of the other things he over looked. I respect the Japanes and I love them as a people(and Heruru). but dont just think because they are godly in Vf4 and other fighters they will know their shit about Doa.

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This is incorrect. IIRC, he has tried to learn and done fairly well with previous entries in the series (DOA2 did decently in JP arcades). Like many Japanese players, he tries and plays other stuff besides VF, including Fighting Vipers 2, in which he is the national champion. He also has a knack for being very, very good at whatever he decides to take up.

The fact that someone Heruru would rather play FV2, another fairly unpopular title which is five years old now, and is without a doubt the world's best and still getting better says A LOT.

I'm certain DoA is fun. I know a lot of people who think it's fun. It's been almost universally rejected as a tournament game in both major markets (Asia and the West), however, so I think it is a game whose popularity is carried far more by its character appeal (or in Japan, "ease by which users can transfer game concepts into pr0n") than by gameplay.

 

Most of what you said about DOA grabbed my attention (in this discussion and the one from many months before IIRC) /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif. I think I might give it a try. When is DOAU (Ultimate is the online version, right?) coming out? And does it carry (most of) the system of DOA3 that you described? Playing against people would be a plus to start playing (Even if I am not sure if I will play it seriously or not. I barely play VF these days).

 

I actually side with Bu Jassoom here...After hearing about all the additions to DOA3, I'm tempted to check it out too.

Too bad I dont have an XBox to play it on /versus/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

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Hayate -> Ninjitsu

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Lol, Hayate is Ein from Doa2 /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Do you honestly want to do this? I mean, debate (here) between VF and DOA3 by saying DOA3 has real depth etc cause you've played it alot (and more then VF) and others haven't? Believe me, there will be those who know both games who will flame you to fuck and beyond man (rightfully).

Oh, I forgot; Hope you actually get a PS2 (and don't have to play it at your brothers) soon so you'll be able to try out Evo some more once again VirtuaPai. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/KiwE (Called him out of his "humble observant who likes both games just as much" / "I'm not doing discrete PR" front).

 

Ok ... I'd do a long reply to this but I have to study for a test. So I'll try to keep long paragraphs out of this.

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CvS2 wasn't buit from the ground up to take advantage of xbox live, This is the main reason for the very poor results. Unlike Capcom, Tecmo is working with the creators of xbox live to create a smooth system to allow DoaU to play very well in an online setting.If Sega does the same thing as tecmo, Im sure it will be way better than what capcom did.

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We'll just have to see if lag can be eliminated. However, I'm really skeptical. Someday it'll be possible. But I'm still very sure that hardcore VF players will NOT embrace online play unless it is completely lag free. IMO, good computer AI and a few friends close to you > laggy, flawed online play. If you guys don't have friends close to you, that sucks, but online play that isn't arcade perfect will seriously ruin your game. Maybe it'll provide some 'instant gratification' which DOA players sorely need, as you said earlier. I guess I value the quality of my game more than others.

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Your view doesnt take into account the matches that will flow perfectly(or semi perfectly). Only the most extreme cases is when lag will ruin your gameplay experience.


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You're right, because semi-perfectly isn't arcade perfect and will ruin your timing. I guess I'm just more picky about having a game that isn't flawed.

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Playing the computer is nothing like playing a human opponent and you should know this. No matter how good the Ai is, Playing the computer cant prepare you for all the mind games and set-ups a human combatant provides.

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Very true. But well programmed AI can introduce you to common guessing games and the mind games are there, although not as pronounced. Yes... AI can't equal human play. But AI > flawed online play.

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Its a rehash just as much as MGS:twin snake. Both have simialr story lines to its original incarnations, Improved gameplay, new intos n cut scenes, and extra fluff.

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Ok, you may have me there. Still, I smell less 'cash-in' with this game. I just have more respect for Kojima than Itagaki. I'm willing to bet that Twin Snakes will make some pretty good enhancements to the gameplay of MGS2, and that DOAU is going to put a few DOA3 elements into DOA1&2 and slap on more costumes. Whatever, we just wait and see. I'm sure DOA fans will be happy.

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Unlike Vf4, One of Doa's biggest gameplay elements are the environments, With higher emphasis on environmental awarness and strategy.

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Yes, that's true. I've had a few gripes with DOA fans talking about how that's why DOA is "more complex" than VF. I'll just say this about environments:

I believe that uneven environments can lead to unbalancing situations, like if you start the round in front of a tree and are immediately trapped at the beginning of a round. Yes I know you can move around at the beginning of a match, but I think the lack of crap in the way in VF gives more freedom of movement for the players, and allows less cheese: Oh I just knocked you off a cliff and did a zillion damage. At least in VF the ring edges are of equal distance from both players. Just my opinion really. Maybe DOA should have a system where you can interact more with trees or pillars or what have you, like sidle around a tree to retreat from an opponent, or swing and kick off of a tree, flip over tables backwards to escape, throw objects in the way, etc. I don't think you can do that in DOA right now.

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Im so confident in my knowledge of Doa that Im willing to say that Doa is just as deep and the majority of the techniques used in Vf4 sans the Multi-throw escapes are possible in doa and require just as much skill and precision.

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Quotes like this suggest that you put a lot of time into the game to master it. Which is why I figured that you spend a lot of time on it. Your previous statements kind of seemed to poke fun at players who dedicate a lot of time to a game. That's why I kind of was confused when you started talking about how dedicated players are stupid, because then you start talking about how your DOA site is up, all the differences between the two games, and how your an expert on all things DOA. Does DOA not require extensive playing to get good at it or something?

What about the moderators of this site? Are they stupid? I'm sure that they don't play VF every second of their life, but they probably play more than I do.

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They all should visit my site and learn something(and im not trying to be cocky either).

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OK. Wow... so Japanese players have something to learn from you?

Lets see. How many more people play 3D fighting games competitively in Asia than in the US? Lets be hypothetical for simplicity's sake and say that there are 100 fighting game players in the world. 10 are in the US and 90 are in Asia. Lets say that in the US, 4 play SC2, 4 play Tekken 4/TTT, 1 plays VF, and 1 plays DOA. Lets see
Asia, where 60 play VF, 30 probably play Tekken and SC2 combined, and maybe .001 plays DOA.

Let me put it to you another way. Japanese and Korean players routinely kick everyones ass at fighting games at all international tournaments, except in games that they don't play (obviously).

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as we speak the Vf scene in america is not all that good and your living off of the Japanese legacy. Your whole argument is based off their success, and you cannot see how much in common both Vf4 and Doa3 have in the states

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My argument is based off of everyone. Majority rules. Sure VF is proportionally we are a lot smaller in number in the US, but it's huge in Japan. Doa is small in the US and Japan. Hmm.... Of course, you're still smarter than tens of thousands of Japanese and Korean players, who would be EDUCATED if they just stopped by your site and saw the merits of playing DOA competitively. I'm sure that it must be superficiality that is keeping them from graduating to DOA.

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So what keeps vf afloat out side of Japan?

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A tightly knit group of dedicated players, that supplement the thousands of competitive Japanese players, which in your mind, don't seem to matter.

Listen, I'm gonna finish this because I have stuff to do. You listed a nice batch of enhancements that happened between the two games but nothing revolutionary or really even evolutionary. Maybe the only things that could have substantial impacts on the gameplay are the properties of the arenas and the stepping, the delay length of counters, and maybe the way you move the characters. Otherwise, you list new moves that others characters already had, and stuff like moves that don't let you techroll, or walls that don't let you techroll, or areas that stun you more or less. Ok, that's not a new engine still.

I'm not going to list all the differences between VF3 and VF4. I don't have time to list them all, and you can probably find out by reading the faqs on this site. Anyway I have to go. This is mainly a disagreement between people who know two different games, so that's fine. I think I'll just close this arguement by saying that the amount of people who play DOA vs VF speaks for itself.

 

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Quotes like this suggest that you put a lot of time into the game to master it. Which is why I figured that you spend a lot of time on it. Your previous statements kind of seemed to poke fun at players who dedicate a lot of time to a game. That's why I kind of was confused when you started talking about how dedicated players are stupid, because then you start talking about how your DOA site is up, all the differences between the two games, and how your an expert on all things DOA. Does DOA not require extensive playing to get good at it or something?

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KTallguy, just wanted to let you know that was so fucking exellent I got goosebumps.

/KiwE

 

I think maddy will agree with me when I say doa 3 is the best fighting game ever /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

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Dandy_J said:

I think maddy will agree with me when I say doa 3 is the best fighting game ever /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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I'd say DoA2 was the best, lest cheesyness. Game would be so0o0o much better without the reverse function. I can prolly go online with DOA and just beat everyone with one button.

 

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Dandy_J said:

I think maddy will agree with me when I say doa 3 is the best fighting game ever /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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As far as costumes are concerned, yeah. /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif