Online Poker

I agree with you, Myke.

I started out with play money to get exp before moving on to real money. Preprop moving all in and stupid small raises all happen way too often on play money tables.

The only reasons I play on play money thesedays are the followings.

First, sometimes I feel like playing poker for fun without being under pressure. Nobody really talks on real money tables unless people want to get under somebody's skin whereas people often talk friendly on play money tables.

Second, I find it helpful to practice in a multi-table tournament. Multi-table tournaments take place every hour or so with over 3000 people , and if you survive more than an hour or two( this is enough time for idiots to go broke and out), you will be able to play some quality pokers against players who take it pretty seriously. If you haven't tried it, I recommend you to try it. Just be warned that first hour or so can be kind of ugly.

Edit: You can get more chips when your play money runs out. That's why people can play dumb. BTW, the situation is a bit better when you play on a higher stake like 100K NL as more people play seriously. Still it's nothing compared to real money tables.

 

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Myke said:
Apart from that, the only reason I got into this was just to kill time, and also to practice. I actually play irl every other week with friends, with real money. But yeah, I'm beginning to question the value of the practice when you get a table full of idiots.

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Play money tables on PP are like yahoo, just without cursing and advertising. You can only practice in real money games, as far as I'm concerned. Sure, there are a lot of players looser than shit (this is especially true for PP /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif), but at least they don't go all in on every damn hand like in play money tables.

I'd recommend playing on low stake limit tables; the practice value does go up with higher stakes, but the players are better - I presume you don't want to actually lose money. Also, I doubt that you play NL with your friends. Do you? /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

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maddy said:
Nobody really talks on real money tables unless people want to get under somebody's skin whereas people often talk friendly on play money tables.


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I always turn all the players messages off. They serve nothing anyway, you can see everything you need.

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maddy said:
Second, I find it helpful to practice in a multi-table tournament. Multi-table tournaments take place every hour or so with over 3000 people , and if you survive more than an hour or two( this is enough time for idiots to go broke and out), you will be able to play some quality pokers against players who take it pretty seriously.


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Multitable tournaments are a bit better, but they're still a waste of time in my opinion. I think pretty much all the players "who take it seriously" play for real money; sure I can be wrong, but what would their point be? Think about it. Nothing good comes out of playing for play money. Well, I guess it all depends on how you treat your poker. Serious income source or just fun. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

I don't recommend -anyone- starting the game playing with playmoney either for fun or to learn as you learn the game wrongly and will probably become overly tight/passive in doing so unless you want to take a stand in coinflip situations (which you actually should if you're invested in the pot). In fact, you're better of with pokersimulators like expect poker academy and what not playing bots.

The thing is nobody plays with playmoney like they do when real money's involved. The "top" playmoneyplayers are those who just grind and recognize when someones being a moron and take his stack cause he doesn't really care since it's only playmoney (in his mind). That's not real poker. In fact, there's a huge chance not even you will care most of the time and play correct poker. If you don't care about the money you're investing it will affect your gameplay. That's why people who are used to a level have trouble stepping down, it's just hard to care. Maybe you will care the first 30min or so but after that it's a downfall.

Poker isn't a cardgame that's played with money - it's a moneygame that's played with cards .

I don't like freerolls much either for starting players. Here's me winning a 3k person freeroll back when I thought there was some value to it (a bet I had with a friend).



I won 5 dollars on that freeroll (pchamps freerolls sucks) for what, 2.5-3hours work? That's not even a happy meal and I felt like the king of the world. How many would I need to play though to know it wasn't a fluke / know I'm actually making progress? Think about that for a while, how much time there would be involved just to try and get some sort of statistical read of potential progress. Another thing; the blinds are so insane when you get to the final table so it stops being poker anyways. If you want to get first you should have a decent stack and just pick of desperate shortstacks.

Imo; If you're a starting out pokerplayer the first thing you should start playing is the lowest fixed limit games you can to get a real ABC poker foundation imo. Many can't do this, they get to bored ("I don't get to play enough hands!") but to fix that it's easy to multitable and get twice the action. So start up with low fixed limit multitabling. It's also the "safest" you can do. If you can't win there in the longrun, why would you win in NL after all? Cause you can bluff? That's just what Mike Caro (Maddy should know this) would call FPS - Fancy Play Syndrome. Your ego is your worst enemy in poker when you're starting out! No, start low limitgames (but enought so you care) and get statistical programs that can analyze your exported hand histories once you get enough. Learn to be honest with yourself >_<

If you want to learn tourney play (I think you should wait a while with that) I really really recommend Harringtons books on poker (Harrington on holdem 1 and 2) which you can find on amazon but leave that for later. Tournamentplay is actually more vastly different from normal poker then many realize :d

Btw, about weekly games and so on. Me and mates have always played SnG's but recently started playing cash/ringgames instead. Man that's more fun - if you haven't tried it in your homegames do it asap! Watch highstakes poker for insperation heh ^___^

Edit: Damn you GLC for making your post faster then mine.

/KiwE

 

$10-50... What is the starting big blind? And how many people. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

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Myke said:
Keep dreaming /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif Anyway, the way we play, the chip denominations don't correlate to the buy-in price.

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What, I'm just curious... A bit surprised about a home NL game, that's all.

 

Kiwie made some valid points, and I bought Harrington's books as well as Doyle's book. I think someone would find T.J.'s book very helpful if he/she wants to become a solid player. I did.


Speaking of the lowest stake limit holdem on PP though, I have a different opinion. From my exp, playing a low stake limit holdem on PP, especially the lowest, was like playing play money. Most of hands will go down to showdown cause people just wouldn't fold on a bet if they had anything e.i.) fair of duces, a gut shot straight draw, a runner runner flash draw...you name it. When the game becomes like that, it's more about who gets lucky.

Say, I hold pocket aces preprop, and when the frop comes 9,7,2 rainbow and my opponent holds J, 10. So many times, my bets wouldn't make them fold, because it's just one or two bets that they'd have to call, and due to the low stake, it's just small amount of money per bet.


My online exp solely comes from playing on PP, so I don't know if it's true for other websites, but I'd recommend to play on the lowest NL rather than limit holdem if anyone wants to get a feel for the game for the reason above.


Edit: Regarding the multi-table tourneys, in the late stage, I found that people try to win or go up as high as they can for their own satisfactions of accomplishment. From my own exp of playing or watching,as it takes at least 5-6 hours to get to the late stage of a tourney over 3000 participants, except for some extremely lucky cases, most people play pretty solid poker even with no real money involved. That's why I think it could be a good practice to play in a multi-table tournament.

 

Maybe I'm biased for low stake play, because I aim to drain money. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Super loose play on stakes like 2/4 or 3/6 is an excellent source for me, so easy I don't move higher. The maths says not to.

 

Well, if you can win consistently on any stake, I guess that's the best place to stick with. I have a somewhat large swing of bank roll at the stake I play. When it's up, it's great, but if starts going down, it's a free fall.

 

If my hourly rate at eg. 3/6 is way better than 5/10, what's the point of moving up? That would be nonsense. IMHO it's not the matter of what stake you can win consistently, but at what stake you can make the most cash. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

True true. That's what I tried to say basically. =)

 

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GLC said:

What, I'm just curious... A bit surprised about a home NL game, that's all.

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I'm not suprised at all. Most ppl who play homegames, in my experience, play this way. It's the tv way which is what they know of. Good luck trying to make someone try Omaha or something different then the tv game that caught their interest in the first place /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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Maddy said:

Speaking of the lowest stake limit holdem on PP though, I have a different opinion. From my exp, playing a low stake limit holdem on PP, especially the lowest, was like playing play money. Most of hands will go down to showdown cause people just wouldn't fold on a bet if they had anything e.i.) fair of duces, a gut shot straight draw, a runner runner flash draw...you name it. When the game becomes like that, it's more about who gets lucky.

Say, I hold pocket aces preprop, and when prop comes 9,7,2 rainbow and my opponent holds J, 10. So many times, my bets wouldn't make them fold, because it's just one or two bets that they'd have to call, and due to the low stake, it's just small amount of money per bet.


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Well yeah fixed limit is a different game as is a cashgame as it a tournament game etc etc. But it's great to teach you patience and startinghand requirements and what not and therefor a great fundamental start as it's more "pure". The problem is ofc things like how the value of suited hands go up because you can't raise people out of draws etc.

Regarding the 9,7,2 rainbow flop though. If he was to pursue that gutshot hoping to catch an 8 he would have about a 16% chance of getting it. That's not very healthy odds for him to continue on against AA now is it? In fact, if he doesn't raise you but check call you it's kinda easy to put him on the draw imo. Then maybe if a 10 or Jack falls on the river you could even checkraise/reraise him if he's aggressive and stupid enough to think he has the top pair (if a non important card falls on the turn that is). If your opponent makes plays like this against you, just be happy about it. In fact, you should even compliment him on it so he does it more often.

All in all he's not making a good play chasing that gutshot, probably not even seing the flop with those cards if there has been aggression preflop. What's he supposed to do if a 10 flops with overcards and whatnot and a bad kicker? Payoff all the way? Ppl who never fold in FL definatly aren't winning players and if someone gets hella lucky on turn he's atleast not taking your entire stack to the test. Just check-call the fish so he continues making the play if that cards he's been hunting comes.

Speaking of draws though and how things work in limit - it's kinda a doubleedged sword. AK and shit is very powerful and almost a form of draw there while that 24% chance or so of hitting on turn/river gives you other problems in NL if you're raised 2/3 pot etc. Ciaffone (poker author) pointed out a very good point (not sure this is exactly the words):

Two highcards (AJ for example) is very good in fixed limit but in NL it's easy to loose a big pot with them. A pair is the classical way of doubling up against when someone has made a set.

So what I'm saying is basicly it's an easier game then NL and which teaches you ABC poker and ABC poker is what you should be playing when you're starting out (even though it looks suuuuuuugoy on tv when ppl bluff).

I personally like cashgames now but that's also a different game where you need to mask your cards as much as possible and really go for flushes / straights as they are your main big payoff cards. I <3 s-conns and 79s for some reason ^__^

/KiwE

 

Aaah, it's good to see that we share more than one hobby! I must admitt that recently Texas Hold 'em has been my chosen vice.

 

Re: OMG the worst beat ever(also awesome)

http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&hand=1799&noview=y

Anybody who could get away from this hand is not a human in my book.

 

Re: an interesting hand I was involved in today

http://www.pokerhand.org/?261303


I figured if she has an ace, she would probably have to call any bets with her ace full so I went all in on the river, and it turned out kinda well. =)

 

anyone still play?

* GLC digs the topic out of its grave[/size]

Sup. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif Been wondering if anyone plays anymore, with all the shit US folks have been getting from the government, certain poker sites and recently neteller... Maddy? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Re: anyone still play?

Netteller is only important if you're really a winning player and deposits regulary, most people aren't. Pokerstars, fulltilt, bodog, doyles, abs poker still are open I think. However, partypoker was the main fishsource for most us players, if you plan to play on full tilt you better be good.

Imho the hand Maddy posted (a bit whiny I know):

Preflop; Don't overcall with 910o Maddy in what will be a 5man pot. You're to easily dominated. If you want to play the junk better come in for a raise to get blinds out and maybe an early limper or so but then you see the problem; your hand is very weak.

Flopplay; Ok. Sara is a major fish apparently.

Turnplay; Bad. People often check and underplay strong hands like the one you have. You're supposed to build pots with your strong hands and keep potsize small with weaker holdings (potsize manipulation). Instead it's mostly the opposite at lower levels cause people are so afraid of loosing someone so they play their strong hands weak and go broke with an overpair (which is just one pair) in cashgames.

Sara has clearly showed that she isn't to happy with his holding on flop. You say you know he has a weak ace but you can't, it can be a straightdraw for instance as well. If another ace falls he'll have a bigger fullhouse then you have on turn. He might (even though there's only a small shot) have A9 and be terrified when the board pairs the 10. He might have picked up the nut flushdraw if he has Ace of spades to go with his ace. You should bet turn as well cause he clearly isn't going to. Everything from 1/2 pot to 1/3 (induce a bluff?) or something. Build pot.

River: Weak call by Sara who at best can hope for a splitpot considering flopplay unless you were buying a freecard for turn draw. He should have checkcalled, you should've bet less probably to be certain to get called. It's a fat overbet and you're not potcommitted so it's weird. Sometimes people do this on tilt say you had 99 as holecards and get mad on 10 river on lowerlevels. But he should've check called and you should've bet 2/3 pot or pot and hope to get raised I think. You're lucky you got called. However, overbetting is still ok if you think you'll get called some of the time and Sara is betting out against you (might be a stopbet though) so I don't have very much trouble with you betting that big on river since you'll only need to be called sometimes in order for it to be +ev. Fun hand, just don't really like the overcall with 910o, but sometimes you have to mix it up I guess ^___^

 

Digging out the thread again, just to say:

There are good days and bad days in online poker.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?881573

I figured he had a straight.

Too bad it was all in clubs.

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Qd Td versus 9c 8c

Flop: 99.7% to 0.3%
Turn: 95.5% to 4.6%

The game was rigged!