Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no hope)

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

Oh me Oh my....

It is clear in this day of texting and tweeting that reading for comprehension has become a lost art. I remember in the states we had these commercials about RIF (Reading is Fundamental) by the content of some of these responses it clear that some of my VFDC brethren are out of practice.

Richkwondo, I was here for the VF5:FS console trademark thread. I can't wait for a PS3 online capability for VF5. Nothing will make me happier than being able to control how much time will be on the clock and how much life bar my opponent will have left at the moment I lose Or me being able to tell you after you tell me which character you're going to use, I'll tell you which of your combos I'll allow and which ones you'll never get off I can't wait.



@SAMxz that DOA online sounds nice, very nice. Sounds like the TECMO people have got it right... I'd be willing to bet
that some of those modes have less street fighting than others.
and that's one of the main points of this thread are there modes in online fighting that discourage cheap online tactics?

Obviously ranked modes do promote (win-at-any-cost-even-if-i-have-to-abuse-lag). It seems that other modes don't suffer as much or at all from (win-at-any-cost-using-lag) tactics.

If that is the case, another point of this thread is to identify those modes and encourage, SEGA to include them or expand them (IF and WHEN) another console version of VF is considered. Its not about bringing up three year old issues, its about looking forward to the future of online fighting, and perhaps having meaningful input to give

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

In fact, no. Online will be always online. Nothing can change that, people would have to change.

There was nothins stopping a******s playing like they do,
even if there was like a 15 other people watching.
(max lobby in DOA4 is 16 people)
Some of them allmost enjoyed when people would get mad at them.

And about that ranked. Fighting games needs ranked mode,
just to know where you stand in the crowd.
Without it, it would be a esoteric job to know how good you really are.

It would be a good defense mecanism to just ignore reality and twist the numbers in your head without computer taking account.
There would not be anymore messages like your character is broken or lag-cry. Random-people would instead send you messages where they say that they are better even if you just won this one.

And what about that celestial pants and magic sword? If customizations really dont take effect anywhere else but
in graphics. Then what people would collect in fighting games?

A rank maybe?

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

Wow, so even in loser stays, tournament mode, and teambattle mode, players still attempt to abuse lag to win-by-any-means necessary

@SAMxz if that really is the case then it reinforces my analogy.

This past weekend I was out of town, and while in my hotel I was watching the HNK cable channel. There was a lot of Judo on
that day. There were Judo matches that had rules and referees, and both fighters had rules to go by, and the referees enforced those rules. And I guess the rules in are part of what made the matches sport.

Street fighting on the other hand, has no rules, has no referees, and whatever the the fighters can do to each other, they'll do it: biting, eye poking, nut kicking, pipe-to-the-head, whatever they can do, they will do.

So the consensus in this thread is pretty much the same. Whatever somebody can do during a fight they will do (and should do[/size]), and since there are no rules, or referees, anything goes, and if you can use lag to your advantage and to your opponent's disadvantage then the more lag the better. This reinforces my point, because this is by definition street fighting.


I've been in my share of street fights, I've won about as much as I've lost. But I don't find enjoyment even when I win against someone that is spamming the same studpid move repetitively hoping to ride the lag wave. These matches to me feel and upon watching replays (look bazaar)

I've said this many times. I rather play against a really really good AI[/size] any day, than play against lagtastic spamming assholes that will glitch,hack, rinse and repeat just to get a win. IMO those tactics take away from the aesthetics and nuance of the gameplay.

I've been criticized for this position in the past. But because you can routinely manipulate lag, glitching, and frame anomalies better than the scrub that's trying to do it to you doesn't prove anything about your VF skills, It may show that you're a better Lagmaster, or glitcher. I've looked at some of the replay of my matches in Tekken where the other person is
rabidly abusing online exploit and the whole thing just looks like comedy (and it feels like comedy) Whether I win 'em or lose 'em all I can do is laugh when the match is over, and believe me I'm not laughing with my opponent, I'm laughing at him.

Give me a solid AI anyday, at least you'll see a little of how the game is meant to be played.

Its possible to play tennis with golf clubs under the right/wrong conditions, and I guess someone would win, and someone would lose, and you could keep leaderboards, and ranking,but regardless to all that, using golf clubs in tennis just aint the way the game was meant to be played.

Street Fighting takes away from a fighting games true aesthetic.

If all I have to look forward to in VF Online is a bunch of lagtastic street fighting then:

SEGA YOU CAN KEEP THE ONLINE MODE FOR VF ON THE PS3, JUST GIVE ME A STEADY STREAM OF DLC THAT INCLUDES NEW AND BETTER AI ABOUT EVERY 6-12 MOS.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

You could just ask for good netcode. . . Just sayin'

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

Look now, you have to get down from your defence mechanical high horse and byu VF5 Disc for xbox360 and that console also.

Its easier to get victories in online.
So...

First you have to win in online, after that you can talk about
offline.

Its not like the game is ruined, no lag can ruin yomi if you know how to "abuse" lag. Its more like a redsift, i mean lagsift.
And how one can blame people playing like they do?
Some have newer played offline and newer played with good players.

And you really can choose your opponents by their connection.

Nowadays its allways this realization to noobs, WOW i never met a
player like that before. That player was so good that i dont know anymore.

This is a rare stuff in online, and more rare in offline.
(by practical means if you play with small number of people)

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

There's more chance that Rotherham will win the Champions League next season than there is for Masterpo to not be a blind fanboy.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

I agree with masterpo, AI or offline is the best way to go, online is not just lag, the problem is tht you are playing with strangers mostly, and VF is such a social experience that plaaying online spoils the fun.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

I Disagree..Offline AI gets you prepared for online battles. You guys are unappreciative. online mode that brought a majority of us together. While Offline is far superior how else will i beat the shit out of you guys in other states? Yeah Lag is a problem so ADAPT it. After 3 years out you guys still complain about things that you have no control over.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

SDS_Overfiend1, this is actually the issue of issues.

Some say playing against AI is nothing like playing against human opponents and therefore it does not prepare you to play against human opponents.

Some say playing against AI helps you learn the basics and therefore prepares you to play against human opponents whether online or offline.


I'm not certain[/size] whether playing against AI could prepare you for the street fighting, glitching, controller hacking, lagtastic abuses that take place in online ranked matches. But I can definitely speak on other fighting games online, because the PS3 does not yet have online for VF. But my guess is that is probably very very different playing against a VF AI versus some spamming, lagtastic, win-by-any-cheap-move necessary opponent.

I completely agree that VF online brought a lot of people together that otherwise would have probably never had the opportunity to play each other. That reason alone has great value. But on the otherhand, when the online matches require
one player to fight fire with fire and both players end up in a dance of lagtastic abuse, spamming cheap moves, and using the netcode as a weapon against each other, the question is are they really playing VF at that point?

When playing against the AI you know that you're actually playing the game somewhat as the designers and developers meant the game to be played. The same cannot be said of online ranked matches the way they tend to go down

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

The VF AI reads your button/joystick inputs and responds. the AI abuses the system where it pleases when it really wants to win.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

Interesting point, but I think they're not quite the same. I don't think the developer's at AM2 gave the AI a win at any cost imperative. I think the developers are trying to make the AI as challenging and fun and unpredictable as they can. On the other hand, online ranked matches are really win-at-all-cost, cheat if you have to, hack your controller, learn to manipulate frame anomalies caused by one opponent having an inferior or superior network connection, spam a cheap lagtastic move until you jam your opponent's event queue.

Obviously if the AI was programmed to win at any cost, you could never beat it. I think that at best its programmed to give you a hard time while still trying to be fair. Also the AI gameplay is at least representative of the developer's intent of how the game sould be played. I know the namco people are stunned at how T6 and SCIV are abused online.
If the developers reguarly watch T6 or SCIV online ranked matches they are probably amazed at all the ways
online can be used to abuse gameplay.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

MasterPoo ( ) you have to play ONLINE more in order to make a more educated opinion.
This whole "cheating" thing, are you talking about people pulling? Or people creating alternate accounts and ranking up off their own accounts?
I haven't really been following the thread so sorry if I'm saying something somebody already said but dude, seriously, all this time you spend writing these posts you could use to be playing online.
No xbox360? Then get a part-time job or something with all the free time you have and buy yourself a 360 already.
It's a bit late but you can still join the rest of the people still playing online and after a few months maybe you will see things differently.

In ranking mode there was a small percentage of people cheating when I started playing. Most of the matches I had were with people that took their losses and kept rematching with myself or others. When you read a thread like The Bad Games Thread just know that it only covers about 10%-25% of most player's online experiences. Most of it is good.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

dude. no. You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is "NEVER GIVE PO A REASON TO TELL YOU HOW HE CANNOT BE SEEN ENDORSING MS PRODUCTS".

Seriously.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

Bwahaha, guess I shoulda stuck to replying on the Moral VS Abare thread like my instincts told me to.

Shit! Umm, Po, please go easy on me.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

@GodEater LOL Thanx Dude!

@tonyfamillia , my friend, 1rst, I am a incredible typist. It
takes me less than 3-5 minutes to do any post I've ever done. Comes from years of Classical/Jazz Piano, computer programming, and word processing classes Yep! Yep! With regard to getting a job, I'm willing to show you my monthly/annual income, if you show me yours. I'll bet you I make 30-40k more a year than you do.... yep $30,000 to $40,000 a year more than you do.


2nd I spend a great deal of time online just unfortunately not with VF. But I spend a great deal of time playing VF in p v p mode. We still have about 15 regular players in my neck of the woods.
My biggest reference for online rank mode are Tekken DR, Tekken
6 , SC IV, Mortal Kombat DC Universe, UFC 2009/UFC 2010, EA's FNR4 and EA's MMA, all these games suffer from street fighting
when it comes to ranked mode. From watching people I know that have VF5 XBL, play, I noticed similar play when it came to ranked matches online.

And yes, I'm talking about all of the varieties of online shenanigans , from pullin, to glitchen,to boostin, to drowin, and all the rest of the lagtastic skills ppl have developed to cheat/win online. I am very familiar with each and every kind, I'm currently playing
online:

Lost Planet 2
Transformers War for Cybertron
Front Mission Evolved
UFC 2010
Assassins Creed BrotherHood
EA's MMA
Metal Gear Solid Online
SC IV
T6
FNR4

I get my daily dose of online bullshit. So, Dr. Familia I presenting you with a very educated opinion.

My hope was that this discussion might produce ideas of modes that could be used for online fighting games that would discourage the online street fighting and encourage skill and thoughtful play. I also postulated that online ranked mode might be a bad idea altogether, since rank online doesn't mean much for most fighting games online (considering the cheating etc)

I went so far as to suggest the possibility of quest challenges online (like from VF4 EVO) where during the match you and your opponent are trying to execute quest challenges. I asked whether anybody thought the underground tournaments from VF4 EVO would be good online modes, I brought up the idea of a tournament mode. Just throwing out ideas, that I thought {MIGHT[/size]} curtail online bullshit play.

This is a site dedicated to IMO the best fighting game on the planet. On this site we also discuss other fighting games. Even if some of this stuff has been discussed before, I see nothing wrong with revisiting it from a different light. And the different light in this case were the new modes that UFC 2010 and EA's MMA have brought to fighting games. While in ranked matches you see the SOS, in the other modes the play is much more sophisticated and rewarding.

Right off the bat, I get MasterPo hasn't played VF5 XBL so he knows nothing about online Some ppl didn't like me comparing online ranked matches to street fights, but no one really gave evidence to the contrary. Some ppl went so far as to say online is online and its the best its ever gonna be so why waste time talking about potential improvements that will never happen.

I realize all that is just a poor, futile attempt at attacking me, for which my response was I don't see why people are always tempted to spar
with me. I learned this from my mama, "if you don't have anything good to say, then shut up and move on" That works here also. If Master Po asks a question, and you don't have a
legitimate, constructive answer, then shut up and move on. The idea of trying to flame me online just doesn't work, I've spent to much time in the temple for that to work. I'm fireproof at this point.

In terms of insults, I can only be insulted by another monk, and sense I'm the last one, I don't see that happening on this site.

So why not keep the discussion cordial and constructive, people from all over the world visit this site, why can't we be on our best behavior at all times, instead of failed attempts at discrediting Master PO, lets show what we do know by constructively adding to the discussion.

This discussion was about the analogy of online ranked matches fighting games to street fighting, and could anything be done to nullify the negative aspects of online play in fighting games by offering different modes.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

They could nullify bad behavior by using the Guilty Gear and Blaze Blue do by penalizing players for lame tactics (e.g. running away for too long without attacking). Just make this a particular online mode or setting and BAM there you go.

Pretty easy, and it's been done effectively.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

But How do they penalize? With a loss?

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

I can't get behind that. the game allows what it allows. you want to play a game with only one direction of play break out checkers.

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

Bwhahaha! I will edit this post in a bit, in the meantime enjoy one of the many things I do with all the money I make


Since I make all the cash and that brings me all the pussy I decided to make a pussy cat out of cash.
I call it Pussy Cash

Wow, MisterPoo, just wow, anyway I gotta go to a meeting but I will be back sir and I will beat you over the head with my financial e-penis. I bet mine's bigger than yours XD

Edit: Ok, here's the deal, I'm too busy to properly respond but #1 I understand that by assuming that you didn't have an xbox 360 because you couldn't afford it I was wrong, I don't know what your situation is like but if money isn't a problem why not just buy one? That's pretty much my mindset about most things, I understand not everybody feels like that and my bad for assuming that you couldn't afford it and #2 I don't read enough of your posts to know why you don't have a 360, I prob shoulda just asked... with all that said...

Why, Po? Why talk about whipping out our financial penises to compare them?? Specially online! Lol, are you really curious? Here you go:
I make $0.00 a year. There, you win.
I work for food and I live in a box under a tree.
Oh wait, this is online, I can say whatever the fuck I want! Haha, here we go:

I make a gazillion-faffillion dollars a year.
My wife (yes, wife, now I'm bragging about being married too XD) is an international model.
I drive nothing but the best cars in all of the land and I have a ginormous building full of money which I go swimming in every day =/

C'mon son! Po, you don't know me, I don't know you, I assumed that the only reason for any person to not have a 360 is a lack of funds, I was wrong for that but for you to assume that make more than me... well, I'll let you belive what you like. No, I will not engage in a pissing contest about how much I make. Even if you knew me personally, I don't talk about that kind of stuff with anybody. There's people that have known me for over a decade that don't know how much I make. And quite frankly, I don't want to know how much they make unless I'm interested in a career change. I think that kind of info is pretty damn childish to try to compete about irl and even lesser online.
What's next? You're going to tell me that your dick is bigger than mine? Lol, seriously man... I don't know if I touched a nerve or what for you to make a post like that but before this, I had no problem believing that you were old enough to be my father... but after that post... kinda makes me wonder

Oh well, we all post stupid shit from time to time and we all look like idiots or assholes online eventually so it's cool. But, please, put your financial e-penis away. Nobody wants to see that old wrinkly shit

Po, I'm just messing with you bro, no disrespect intended. If you take/took offense, my bad. It's just hard to hear you talking about online and ranking on VFDC when you don't play VF5 ONLINE =/

Anyway, I really don't have time to write more. I'm not a MasterTypist like yourself. I mean, I type well enough and all but shit, I got a lot more work to do lately and it just keeps growing so I don't have the down time that I used to.
As strong a stance as you've taken against VF online it still surprises me you made this thread... on VFDC no less
Anyway, time is money and I've spent enough here. I won't bother your thread again man, later... umm, may the force be with you and keep the pebble... young grasshopping padawan skywalker... or whatever it is that you say. Peace!

 

Re: Online Rank Fighting is Street Fighting (no ho

. . . it just seems like that's what masterpo is trying to get at. Forcing a particular play style.

@masterpo

For the penalty to be effective it'd probably need to be activated during the game. Like they'll take more damage or lose their entire super bar, or their health will drain. Whatever you want, it's a concept I'm proposing not a direct prescribed solution. You could make it a particular setting that has to be turned on when creating an online match so that players know before hand "okay we're playing by a subset of rules" so things are fair.

Again blazeblue does this with astral heats, among other settings you can make for player matches. If people want to complain about a move that can kill you in one hit under those crazy conditions that need to be met just to use the move, then you can turn it off in your online lobby. It sounds like you're suggesting a similar concept, except far more extreme.