Open/Closed Stance in Fighting Games

Again, my issue isn't that it's in the game, it's that every character does it. As I've said, I could definitely see some characters doing it. Is it a nitpick? To be sure it is. But nitpicks are fair ground in sequel dreaming threads. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

As for realism, I don't want that either. Realism would make the moves differ in animation, speed and damage based on range, angle and stamina. Arms and legs would get tangled. No way in hell do I want that. Like I said, the stance switching thing for me is an annoyance (it does offend my basic sense of believability, sorry). But sometimes people jump so far out on a small part of a post, that things get blown all out of proportion.

 

Yeah, I guess. I think it's just a risk one takes when writing on a forum. Shouldn't be like that, but happens. I'm actually glad the discussion is getting more clear and civil /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif I like to joke around, but enough is enough (that's me admitting to posting completely irrelevant, not-even-half-funny posts).

Anyway, as for stance switching... the only time I didn't care about my stance was when fighting in TKD, as I didn't have to worry about any straight punches, body blows, etc.
Now, since I started MMA... god, sometimes I'm affraid to move to much to get caught by something (liver kick hurts as fuck!).

If I'm not mistaken, characters in Tekken keep their positions unchanged, right? 'Cause there they always do certain moves with either left or right punch/kick. King's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gifR/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif will always be done with a right leg, and it will always be the leg in the back.
Wolf's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif will also always be done with the leg in the back, but that changes (sometimes it's the right one, sometimes it's the left one).
Actually, I used to wonder, how great do you have to be, to pull off every technique as properly with a left as with a right hand/leg. It doesn't "annoy" me though /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

It's actually jarring that in SC and Tekken they never switch feet position. Once you notice it, it's difficult to not get annoyed.

Even DOA switches foots, maybe only for an aesthetic reason but nevertheless makes more sense.

It's so 2D to have feet not switching. Not that I don't like 2D games, but in 3D games that's not good enough.

 

If I'm not mistaken, VF and DOA are the only 3D fighters to do this (DOA was initially built using loaned VF source code). And 2D fighters actually switch their stance when they switch from one side of the screen to the other. Sagat used to switch even his eyepatch, and Vega still switches his claw. It's a technicality, but true!

 

not caring about the perceived realism of vf, i'm going to go and say that having open and closed stances are a good thing and add depth to the combo system (not to mention it requires you to actually prepare your launcher/get really lucky and be in the right stance).

 

You can train yourself to see the stance during your launcher and when it connects. That way you don't rely on luck.

 

I like how VF fighters can mirror stance. If satisfies both right and lefties.

 

The thing is, the inputs in Tekken correspond to limbs in question. Tekken has 4 buttons, 2 for left and right arms, and 2 for left and right legs. For each move, the limb thats used in animation corresponds to the button pressed. Thats why it looks like they dont switch stance, cause the same limb is used for the same attack always (I think.). I think the characters return back to original stance after using a move that takes steps too..

However, hwoarang switches stance a lot, and he has different moves depending on which foot is forward I think. The stance switching in Tekken is however not as 'freeform' as in VF.

I just prefer choosing myself which stance I have forward, and where do semicirculars track. VF system essentially doubles the amount of semicircular moves in this sense compared to the fixed stance system.

Haha! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

ps. I just grabbed the first hwoarang vid I found.

 

i remember genfu having a shoulder attack in some string: 6ppp+k maybe and it depended on foot position what side the shoulder would connect, pushing the opponent to either side. It was actually used tactically in doa2ultimate because although it did a little less dmg than another variation of that string, if you knew footstances you could get a wallslam where the other guy sits against the wall and you could apply a strong pressuregame because in ultimate you don't have rising kicks from a sitting wallslam (and you have super dmging wallthrows).

 

I'll give you a basic example....jab, cross, rear kick. Usually, if you throw the kick with any conviction, you are going to change your stance because (esp in mma)if you try to bring the leg all the way back, it will be to slow unless you really have hurt the guy. So you drop the rear leg in front and then do a quick shuffle back.

 

Another example could be jab, cross, knee off the rear leg.

In my Muay Thai lessons we're trained to kick (rear round kick) through opponents/pads so if we miss, we follow through, returning to our stance. We're taught to always kick with conviction with our guard up to catch any potential reprisals.

Naturally; if we hit or are blocked we bring our leg back off of the momentum of the kick.

 

Yep...or hell, a basic wrestling shot is a stance change. Now, normally you try to get back to where you were as fast as possible. If your throwing a bunch of kicks, you might changes stances, but conventional wisdom says that switching stances is generally bad to do. You will see some fights change stances if they are going to change their gameplan. If I know I am going to fight a power puncher, I might jab and step to have an "open" stance with someone because it leads me to attack their lead leg with outside singles and avoid their power hand easier.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Sure, as a part of executing the technique your foot position might change, but afterwards the goal is to get back into your normal stance. If there is a change of stance, it's a conscious tactical decision (based on trying to avoid the power techniques of the other fighter among many other reasons). I'm also assuming you circle to avoid your opponent's power side more often than you you circle into it.

So based on those facts alone, it's hard to argue that another mind game would be added at the expense of the current open and close stance combo variations (although I'm sure a new system of situational combos would appear). Whether or not one would like to see Virtua Fighter played like that is another story.

 

The switching of the foot position adds to the evading mind-games. It gives the player more control on where he wants to force the opponent to evade. The opponent has to be aware which moves are best to evade towards the back and the front.

Since it switches, you have to pay attention to it at all times or before you evade. This also applies to a downed opponent like Myke mentioned.

 

i personally like the dynamic. I know these are the types of things that allegedly keep people away from vf5, but i enjoy the layer upon layer of depth. It means i can seemingly always improve my play. Little bit by little bit. It gives me a reason to keep coming back. I imagine the day i max out my abilities i will lose interest. The grind to get better is just too fun.

 

After reading over some of your posts dapheenom i see what ur saying a little bit. Here is my take on what ur describing. A system overhaul to fit the game to ur point would be ridiculous.

But...this sounds like an absolutely, positively fantastic idea for a character. That would be very cool wrinkle for a new character. He/she automaticall switches foot stance to match ur opponents. Basically ur stance options would be what foot position u wanted to maintain with ur opponent, and then no matter what they did ur character would change stance accordingly to keep ur desired foot positioning. This could really mess with people /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif Of course ur move options would very on foot positions. It would also be original, which is always nice for a fighting game.

 

Oh my goodness! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Now, I am debating something in real life fighting, not fighting games. FOR a fighting game, the open/close stance becomes necessary in the way it is implemented. With VF, if you pay attention to stance, it can pay out in spades.