Pope's Comments

Muslims are not killing people b/c they are not Muslims. Even the idea of jihad is of a defensive holy war.

That is to say that radical muslims believe that they are at war with the West, who has invaded and occupied Muslim lands, exploited and expropriated resources and peoples, and killed and subjugated millions.

When bin Laden offers Americans the chance to convert, he is only satisfying requirements of his religion that he offer enemies a chance to convert before attacking them (as a defensive measure).

Western media nd leaders lie about jihadists motives for their own political gain. God forbid Americans ever start to ask "Why the fuck are we so involved in the middle east? What do we gain? Is it worth the price in blood and dollars?"

So leaders lie. Al Qaeda hates freedom and wants to force us all to convert to Islam. What a load of shit.

I do not like al qaeda or support their goals, but I hate being lied to by our leaders.

 

WHAT!!!!
I dont think anyone here disagree's about what you say about the lies in governement and media. But to say that Jihadist are not willing to kill non-converts is false.. heck i said even americans are willing to kill who dont believe as they do..
but they are willing to kill for backing Isreal. Why does Isreal have to be off the map? so i think the argument is not going to end until they want to co-exist (with isreal having a lot blame on not wanting to give in a bit as well) Its an issue too old to change and to pure that many are willing to die (and kill) for.

 

Al Qaeda and similar groups are not killing people because they won't convert. That is not their motivation.

They are killing people who are citizens of nations which they believe are attacking Muslim peoples and places.

They have actual, real world goals and the violence is an attempt to attain those goals.

 

DissMaster - have you actually read some of the statements from Al Queda? Their goal is a musliem ruled world.

 

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2000964,00.html

Tripoli - The elder son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi has called on Pope Benedict XVI to convert to Islam immediately, dismissing last week's apology from the pontiff for offending Muslims.

"If this person were really someone reasonable, he would not agree to remain at his post one minute, but would convert to Islam immediately," Mohammed Gaddafi told an awards ceremony on Monday evening for an international competition to memorise the Qur'an.

"We say to the pope - whether you apologise or not is irrelevant, as apologies make no difference to us."

Gaddafi junior also hit out at "those Muslims who look for comfort in the words of a non-Muslim".

He said Muslims "should not look for charity from the infidel... but should fight Islam's enemies who attack the faith and the Prophet Muhammad".

EVEN IF IT REPRESENTS THE MINORITY, IT IS STILL COMING FROM SOMEONE IN A HIGH POSITION.

 

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Shadowdean said:

DissMaster - have you actually read some of the statements from Al Queda? Their goal is a musliem ruled world.

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Care to show us those statements?

 

Muslims want us (the U.S. and all other western countries) the hell out of the middle east and middle eastern affairs. Religion serves as nothing but a uniter among countries and peoples that normally wouldn't want to work together.

Whats so terribly hard to understand about that? I would USE christianity (or religion as a whole) as well if it would unite us against an enemy much greater than what the U.S. is.

Wait until south america starts getting its shit together. You guys wanna see fanaticism and hatred of the U.S. ? Just you wait.

 

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Cuz said:

What I meant is that if Mohamed didn't push his religion by sword he would be in essence better then the Christians because they have. If he has done like the Christians, why criticize him?

Muslims probably should embrace death. At the rate that others kill them, clinging to life is a bit moot.

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Are you kidding? Mohammed is sacred in Islam. Just a few months ago Muslim were ready to fight over some pictures that were supposedly caricatures of Mohammed. If you are going to hold someone to be that sacred then what he said is a very big deal.

Simply put, as far as Muslims are concerned, Mohammed is above all other people, Pope or not, to say that he is equal to any Christian is to debase Mohammed in their eyes. Anything that would shed light on his character is a VERY big deal. So whether or not he ordered that Islam be spread and/or enforced by violence is very important.

 

Sorry the only thing I wanted to compare was methedology of "recruitement" and nothing else. I know it's not writen very well.

 

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Fishie said:

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Shadowdean said:

DissMaster - have you actually read some of the statements from Al Queda? Their goal is a musliem ruled world.

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Care to show us those statements?

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What exactly separates Al Queda from other control groups (i.e. US)? To me they are both gangs who like power and are just using and/or manipulating situations to be in power and control. Besides that there are a number of muslims who do not support Al Qaeda just as there are a number of Americans who do not support US government. You see what I'm getting at here?

 

Vith Dos:

its impossible to be out of the mid-east confict for us,, (i for one am those that say let them fight it out and see who wins).. because there are nations (not just average sects or people) that would love to Destroy ,, not just shrinken,, Isreal.. I know Isreal has issue of its own that it does wrong to help balance the middle east,,but when people ,, i.e. president of Iran or Sadam, aim to Destroy a nation as opposed to 'regime change' it ,, then its not your typcial confilct.
We will not (meaning US or world) stand idly to see that (even though we do that with africa,,but thats another issue)..

So similar to the earlier war when Isreal took on 4-6 countries,, I dont think the world will allow Isreal to go all out with anyone anymore and therefore will ask for help,, who will help ?
UN ,, like the US and Iran said yesterday ,, needs to have restructuring in order to be a viable force... right now UN doesnt do sh@t cept hold meetings and stuff.
Muslims are going to continue to scream unfair because we back isreal,,, but the battle of isreal has gone on for centuries and really there is no resolution unless Muslims agree to allow jews to walk anywhere ,, and jews agree to allow muslims to walk anywhere -- mainly both of their holy sites which is the agrument apart fromwho's land it is .

But countries like Qatar ,, whogovernment and people are very openly Anit-US ,, give the best and larges runway in the world to use for the war,, why??? becuase they like the US presence there or some other muslim coutry will try to take over their oil rich nation for their needs. The Arab nations are a very big mix of issues,, and religeon is being the uniter..

Leadership is an issue here which would help alot. Even though Nixon was bad at a lot of thngs, he would have been good at creating allies in arab world to create a divide instead of a united anti-US attack.

I know wht you mean about south/central america,, we have our issues which get resolved thorugh democrocy. US policy has ingnored these coutnries as well and now they are going more socialist and that is unfortunate / fortunate. The latin culture is unique in that it fluctuates as well from having dictators to theives to puppets as leaders.. and its up to the people to fight for what they want.. For the poor now,, socialism works,, but to gain ties and build wealth,, it will be their downfall ... why else does socialism / capitalism fail ??

Maximum

The question isnt with Al Queda supporters,, but with why there is hyper sensitivity in the Musilim Religeon instead of a live-and-let-live philosophy ? why would you be wrong for saying that 'mohameed was a lyer inyour opinion ' and have to die ??? when you can claim jesus 'had sex with Mary Magdaline' and just face protests and not feel you're going to die (not saying you wont get death threats)..

ahhhhhhhhh,,, this topic has soooo many litte things involved and whether we stay in or out of ARAB affairs,, it will continue for ever . There is nothing we can say to dampen what people want and that have control of the holy land for their relgeous freedom. Jews there stp muslims from small corridors which are sacred tho them,, because they are sacred jewish grounds.. how do you settle this ??
ther does need to be a mediator ,, who shuold tha tbe ??? " enter the anti-crist" /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

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MADrox said:

" enter the anti-crist" /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Shadowdean said:

DissMaster - have you actually read some of the statements from Al Queda? Their goal is a musliem ruled world.

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Still waiting

 

No, the anti-Christ is that piece of crap Puerto rican "pastor" that claims to be the one-and-only son of God, Jesus. He has multiple churches around Latin America but he is based out of the state I currently live in, Florida. That bastard has got some good security around him so it's hard to kill him. Trust me, I tried /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /versus/images/graemlins/lol.gif

Christians, Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, Hari-Krashna worshippers, Hinduists, and so many other religions that back in less civilized times might have killed in the name of their religion are not doing so now because we live in more civilized times, our cultures and religions have evolved and progressed into more peaceful and love seeking/offering than before.
What a lot of American Muslim and Asia Muslim communities fail to realize is that even though they are part of a more civilized and rational Islamic demographic, these Middle Eastern Muslims are not living in these idealistic and civilized surroundings.

Here in the states there are Muslim communities that many people have no problems with. A Jew or a Christian can casually stroll through their neighborhood without worrying about being attacked in any form.
But in the Middle East, the type of culture that still prevails harkens back to a more savage era where if even one of their own was to get caught stealing he can get his hand chopped off without much or any protest from any other Muslims.
When American soldiers inside of a Humvee were attacked and killed and the "non-combatants" dragged these soldier's dead, burnt bodies to a side of a bridge and hung their remains, they were all dancing and celebrating. Could you picture that happening here?

Of course, different enviorenments and/or cultures affect individual's rationale and/or behavior.

Now, I'm not saying that you cant find rational Muslims in savage enviorenments and I'm not saying that you cant find irrational Muslims in free and peaceful enviorenments but you can learn a lot by visiting the Middle East and finding out things such as how it is absolutely normal to find an AK-47 inside of most homes. That is actually the norm.
Even when celebrating in Iraq guns are fired in the air, most male kids (that I met) know how to operate an AK. Most arguments I witnessed usually ended in violence, not always with guns but violent nonetheless.

I dont want to call people out there animals or savages, because I know better now, but most of them are definitely products of their enviorenment.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to have intelligent, rational people come from there, but most these kids didnt even get to go to school until we showed up.

I grew up in Bronx, NY, most people expect me to be or act a certain way but some people would act surprised the first time they would hear me expressing myself articulately and politely.
They dont expect it and that use to upset me but after visiting other states I understood why most people consider New Yorkers rude/arrogant and/or ignorant, even though not all of us are like that.

I truly think that love conquers all but dealing with these extremists a lot of love-spreading people are going to die trying to reach them.

 

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Fishie said:

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Shadowdean said:

DissMaster - have you actually read some of the statements from Al Queda? Their goal is a musliem ruled world.

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Still waiting

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i suspect that his attempts at looking up these statements on the web have been foiled by his near-retarded literacy level - not even google's "did you mean x" can overcome his truly magnificent ability to mangle even the simplest of words.

 

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tonyfamilia said:
I truly think that love conquers all but dealing with these extremists a lot of love-spreading people are going to die trying to reach them.

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History truly believes that carpet bombing conquers all. And history is going to be proved right yet again in this confilct

 

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Mr. Bungle said:

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Fishie said:

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Shadowdean said:

DissMaster - have you actually read some of the statements from Al Queda? Their goal is a musliem ruled world.

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Still waiting

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i suspect that his attempts at looking up these statements on the web have been foiled by his near-retarded literacy level - not even google's "did you mean x" can overcome his truly magnificent ability to mangle even the simplest of words.

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Hahahahaha, that or he cant find it since they didnt say that.

Also, Tonyfamiglia.
Seen hotel Ruanda?
Religiously fueled ethnic genocide that killed a million people and not a Muslim in sight, all Christians and Catholics.
Or the slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia or more recently the terrorist attacks against Mosques in India.

Dont come here saying only Muslims kill.

 

The Fallujahns who killed those Blackwater rent-a-thugs represent Muslims as much as the American servicemen who planned and carried out the rape of a 14 year old Iraqi girl and the murder of her family represent America.

How about the guys in Vietnam who made finger necklaces and wore them until stank and then threw them out and made new ones with the frsher corpses' fingers?

How about the Tiger Force in Vietnam?

Guess who kept the Tiger Force war crimes from becoming public under the Ford Administration?

Hint: His name rhymes with Ronald Cumsfeld.

 

None of this has to do with the Pope's comments. All that matters is whether or not Manuel Ii was telling the truth about Mohammed or not.

 

no one is saying that these people represent muslims or americans in you examples..... the one difference is that whre al Queda does not represnt muslims,, the results of their actions are celebrated or accepted by a some governments or the people in muslim states. Where as the servicemen incedents,, its almost a non existant few that celebrate or approve of the rapage/ finger neclases and our government only turns a blind eye (which is no better)... but im aiming the common folk.. lots of muslims are appauled by extreme actions,,but there are a good number that are also running to join their ranks and help them for that extreme cause. Americans are not enlisting to go committ rape or see arab penises,,, they just want to get some money for school or become a citizen (yu know that latinos are making a large number of recruits with many of them being purely residents)