Pope's Comments

Alright, this is what I wanted, a constructive conversation with some different perspectives.
Fishie, thanks to your comment I've had another paradigm shift.
You're absolutely right. Here in America we are more concerned with America's currently #1self-proclaimed enemies.
We see tragedies that affect us directly such as Americans getting decapitated; a major attack on 9/11; our soldiers getting killed; etc. and we turn an almost blind eye on the rest of the world. But you're right, just because Christians, Catholics and Jew's extremists arent killing Americans, it doesnt mean that they're not killing too.
I will be watching Hotel Rwanda this weekend.

Dissmaster, war can drive any sane man insane.
That's why after coming back from a war all soldiers have to go through classes and psychological sessions to deal with post-battle-stress syndrome.
A lot of soldiers are never the same after going through a war.
But, I understand your comparison and your comment as well, well put.
The question does remain though, did the prophet Mohhamed actually preach to spread their faith by the sword? Did the Pope not do enough research on the subject or was all this orchestrated by the Pope to fuel the anger of Muslim extremists and further show the world their violent ways?

 

Short of learning arabic and becoming a student of islam/islamic history/religious history, if you are curious about what it was mohammed wrote you can go pick up the quoran at any bookstore. He said lots of stuff that doesn't jive with 21st century western sensibilities and lots of other stuff clearly intended to provoke Jews and Christians of the day. It is a powerful, masculine and vituperative work. Read it for yourself but keep in mind it's context and your own limitations in divining its texture given it will be in translation 14 centuries or so after it was written.

 

Vituperative : uttering or given to censure : containing or characterized by verbal abuse

Just incase anyone else was wondering. Thats an awesome vocabulary word.

 

Induveadably!

 

In order to bring some sensitivity to this thread, I hope this clip will help others understand why Muslim extremists are so upset.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1_d7LXfo6k&NR

 

[ QUOTE ]
Fishie said:

Also, Tonyfamiglia.
Seen hotel Ruanda?
Religiously fueled ethnic genocide that killed a million people and not a Muslim in sight, all Christians and Catholics.
Or the slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia or more recently the terrorist attacks against Mosques in India.

Dont come here saying only Muslims kill.

[/ QUOTE ]

I watched Hotel Rwanda, great movie, thanks for reccomending it.
Umm, where did you get "religiously fueled genocide" from??? The movie is based on the true events that took place during the genocidal violence that erupted in Rwanda between the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups in 1994. They're killing each other because of race. Did you even pay attention? Most of the people there holding on to their necklaces with crosses, were the victims not the attackers but anyway the issue was that only Muslims are killing in the name of religion . Here I was really thinking that in this day and age there were Christians killing in the name of religion but then I saw the movie and I was like wtf? Lol, lying ass Fishie.

My statement remains, Muslims are still killing in the name of religion in the 21st century. I'm not defending Catholics because they have way too many skeletons in their closet (mafia, Nazis, child molesting priests, etc.). There is no race or religion out there without bad people but the only religion killing in the name of religion in this day and age are Muslims. And that's a fact.
Great movie though.

 

[ QUOTE ]
tonyfamilia said:
There is no race or religion out there without bad people but the only religion killing in the name of religion in this day and age are Muslims. And that's a fact.
Great movie though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose BushCo won't say that the killing in Iraq is due, in part, to the agenda of the Christian Right...

Cowardice.

Just say it.

It's about oil and One Nation Under God.

 

[ QUOTE ]
Plague said:

[ QUOTE ]
tonyfamilia said:
There is no race or religion out there without bad people but the only religion killing in the name of religion in this day and age are Muslims. And that's a fact.
Great movie though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose BushCo won't say that the killing in Iraq is due, in part, to the agenda of the Christian Right...

Cowardice.

Just say it.

It's about oil and One Nation Under God.

[/ QUOTE ]

No..., I'm pretty sure that is just about oil. So that would be the agenda of the Corporate right.

 

Iraq and Oil

It's about oil. Not about stealing the oil as in pumping itt out and sailing away like, "Ha ha we stole your oil and now you don't have any!"

It was about putting a gov't in there that would use oil in a way that benefitted American interests.

There has actually been disagreement about what to do with Iraq's oil. The Neocons originally wanted to privatize the industry, causing world oil prices to plummet and breaking the backs of the OPEC nations. Then the U.S. could invade and Syria, Iran, maybe even Saudi Arabia and set up U.S. friendly democracies and ensure U.S. (and Israeli) hegemony in the region for decades to come.

The oil companies wanted the U.S. to keep Iraq's oil controlled by a state company, limiting production and keeping oil prices (and oil company profits) high.

Guess who got their way?

The neocons' plan was scrapped early on. Their idiot neoliberal privatization schemes were only apllied to every other industry in Iraq, leading to immeasurable sufferring and unemployment and guaranteeing the rise of the insurgence. What were all those formerly state-employed Sunnis going to do with all their spare time? Take up knitting? Sculpt busts of their liberator/hero George W. Bush?

Amazingly, the security situation in Iraq has lowered oil production more than even the oil companies dared to hope. Witness record profits reported by Exxon, Shell, etc.

It would be wrong to fail to point out that Israel figured largely in the decision to go to Iraq. Indeed, more than one informed commentator has remarked that were it not for the Israel Lobby's support of the War, it likely would not have happened. I am not pointing an accusing finger at American Jewry, who mostly oppossed the war, to their credit. Rather I wish to spotlight the machinations of the Israel Lobby, the fanatically hawkish Israel supporters in the United States who use their money and influence to maintain a stranglehold on all debate regarding Israel in the United States. The result of their efforts is a debate in America over Israel that is more reflexively pro-Israel than discussions within the state of Israel itself.

Who do you think is pushing for an ill-fated attack on Iran?

 

Re: Iraq and Oil

[ QUOTE ]
DissMaster said:

It's about oil. Not about stealing the oil as in pumping itt out and sailing away like, "Ha ha we stole your oil and now you don't have any!"

It was about putting a gov't in there that would use oil in a way that benefitted American interests.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, because stealing control of the oil is actually better than stealing the oil itself.

[ QUOTE ]
DissMaster said:

There has actually been disagreement about what to do with Iraq's oil. The Neocons originally wanted to privatize the industry, causing world oil prices to plummet and breaking the backs of the OPEC nations. Then the U.S. could invade and Syria, Iran, maybe even Saudi Arabia and set up U.S. friendly democracies and ensure U.S. (and Israeli) hegemony in the region for decades to come.

The oil companies wanted the U.S. to keep Iraq's oil controlled by a state company, limiting production and keeping oil prices (and oil company profits) high.

Guess who got their way?


[/ QUOTE ]

It amazes me how people think that any force other than big money controls the Republican party. Especially at a time when the President if from a big oil family. There are other factions and ideologies in the Republican party most of which actually get more press than the the Corporate Right. But when one ignores all the rhetoric and failed bills that were already doomed when they were brought to the floor, and looks only at the what the Republicans actually get done he clearly sees that the Coporate Right get their way in the Republican Party.

[ QUOTE ]
DissMaster said:

The neocons' plan was scrapped early on. Their idiot neoliberal privatization schemes were only apllied to every other industry in Iraq, leading to immeasurable sufferring and unemployment and guaranteeing the rise of the insurgence. What were all those formerly state-employed Sunnis going to do with all their spare time? Take up knitting? Sculpt busts of their liberator/hero George W. Bush?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
DissMaster said:

Amazingly, the security situation in Iraq has lowered oil production more than even the oil companies dared to hope. Witness record profits reported by Exxon, Shell, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't it amazing that people who spend their whole lives pursuing money and allegedly studying economics know so little the effects of economics on people.

How can you honestly expect to control a population that has 70% unemployment. If the US had 70% unemployment They couldn't control the US population either.

[ QUOTE ]
DissMaster said:

It would be wrong to fail to point out that Israel figured largely in the decision to go to Iraq. Indeed, more than one informed commentator has remarked that were it not for the Israel Lobby's support of the War, it likely would not have happened. I am not pointing an accusing finger at American Jewry, who mostly oppossed the war, to their credit. Rather I wish to spotlight the machinations of the Israel Lobby, the fanatically hawkish Israel supporters in the United States who use their money and influence to maintain a stranglehold on all debate regarding Israel in the United States. The result of their efforts is a debate in America over Israel that is more reflexively pro-Israel than discussions within the state of Israel itself.

Who do you think is pushing for an ill-fated attack on Iran?

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who thinks it is utter corruption for a group of foreign citizens to have a paid lobby toward our government. So the rich people from Israel or China or Japan can have more influence over congress than we can?

 

Re: Iraq and Oil

[ QUOTE ]
Darrius_Cole said:
So the rich people from Israel or China or Japan can have more influence over congress than we can?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh easily. No offense but you don't have the money to be important in their eyes.

 

Re: Iraq and Oil

after watching more depressing films recently like "Hijacking Democracy" on HBO, or the excellent "Why We Fight", which basically talks about how the US is a War machine that will never stop because Defense Contractors make too much money, and employ too many working class people [while making another great point about how the war machine needs the oil they're getting, seen any hybrid tanks or F-16s running around?]; I've come to fully feel that our country is now a hopeless joke. If I didn't have a young child and a partner who wants to be close to her parents in the twilight of their lives, I probably would have left already.

The amazing thing is that the power to do all these horrible things comes from the PEOPLE of our country themselves: WE give them the $$$$$$$$$$, WE pilot the death machines, WE assemble the weapons etc. The only way out of this would be for the people of this country to suddenly have a mass epiphany that we were all in this together, and that we should refuse to do anything that leads to the empowerment of the few interests that now rule this country.

That will never happen, because humans are too unable to see the BIG picture, and are too wrapped up in thought like "Well, I need a job, and if I go to Iraq the army will pay for my college" or "my baby needs food, so I'm going to build these fighter planes". Think about this: if EVERY soldier in Iraq, or even 75% of them, laid down their arms and refused to fight, or do anything but get on a plane to go home, we'd be DONE with our involvement there. You only have to look at examples of people like Ghandi to see how much the protest of one person can do.

The problem w/ our country is that no one wants to give up our fat way of life, so they get really pumped up on ideas like Freedom and Democracy. Guess what? Thanks to these assholes: http://diebold.com/dieboldes/ we no longer live in a truly democratic country. Besides, so much of our populace votes for such lame shit anyway. In the recent California elections, people voted AGAINST Clean Water programs, AGAINST making oil companies pay taxes that wouldbe collected & invested in alternative fuel research w/ a program to cut use of Gas & Diesel in California by 25% in 10 years, AGAINST a campaign finance reform bill, AGAINST more money for schools, and FOR making "sex offenders" wear GPS tracking bracelets for the rest of their LIVES.

This country will die from the greed of the people in power, and the average citizens will give them the means to do it.

 

Re: Iraq and Oil

Akiralove, you have lost sight of what's really important:

Gay people are trying to get married.

/versus/images/graemlins/deadpan.gif

There's a great article in the newest Harper's by Chalmers Johnson (who appears in Why We Fight) about the USA and military Keynesianism. He even has the balls to point out that we basically have a nazi economy and that a downturn is inevitable.