Protesting in China - demanding a Japanese apology

China Taiwan Update:
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2005/s1356895.htm

From the article

[ QUOTE ]
Now, it ended with both leaders signing off on a joint communiqu?that opposes Taiwanese independence, and says that they are striving for peace and stability. And they're also working towards opening China's market more broadly to Taiwanese goods, signing a formal peace agreement, establishing military- to-military ties, and allowing Taiwan to even join some international bodies like the World Health Organisation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note the leader mentioned of Taiwan is Lien Chan, and not democratic-elect president Chen Shui-bian who still maintains a pro Taiwan independence.

This is developing into a really interesting situation.

 

Look kids China are full of morons just take Shang for example but luckily you have some individuals w/ intelligence like me.

People in the world are worried about the mideast & N. Korea well they're also morons. I would beat my right nut on China starting a major war second only to the U.S. Everyone outside of Asia thinks China is joking around with the talk of taking back Taiwan w/ force are really thinking out of their Asses.

& China Protesting = A Joke! b/c they have no real balls.

 

When discussing the hypocritical nature of China we should just look in our own backyard.

African Americans have killed hundreds of other African Americans throughout history; yet when a Caucasian person kills an African American its unacceptable.

A more simplified example would be when an African Americans call another African American nigger. When a white person calls a black person nigger many people would find it unacceptable.

In China, the Chinese may have committed many atrocities to each other and killed millions, but that’s within its own boarders and with its own people. When the Japanese stepped in whether they killed 1 or 1 million does not make a difference, they were an outside party invading.

 

"African Americans have killed hundreds of other African Americans throughout history; yet when a Caucasian person kills an African American its unacceptable."

waaa?

 

I was confused by this too. The more serious crime (at least apparently in the eyes of the American judicial system) is for a black man to kill a white person. That'll get the guy the lethel injection, especially in Texas.

 

You talk like black fellas in this country have to commit a crime to get executed.

 

Re: Nationalism

[ QUOTE ]
To say Rape of Nanking is worse than the Holocaust, you're saying that the Holocaust isn't as bad as something else. Like I said before, this is the EXACT same attitude that allowed right wing assholes in Japan to decide that the Rape of Nanking "wasn't as bad" as the Chinese had made it out to be, and that new history books should reflect so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok... so my attitude is allowing the right wing assholes in Japan to decide that it wasn't as bad?

My attitude is saying that it's WORSE......

Everyone's attitude is the one that is the one that allow people to give excuses.

Everyone in this thread is saying, "look at what China does themselves, so Japan is ok in doing what they are doing."

What kind of kindergarden logic do you guys have? Everyone in this thread so far is saying that China needs to look at their own actions first, did China go to Japan and kill their women and children? So how is my attitude the same as those right wing people? It's obviously true that certain events will seem more horrendous in the eyes of the beholder. Are you telling me that someone killing one of your family members is not more horrendous to you then someone killing a stranger? The point is that someone needs to make it known the degree of the atrocity, to make a point. What do you think people would do if the Chinese protesters were saying "oh but also remember other atrocities?" Saying that it's all equal is what allows people to say "oh but they didn't have to apologize, so why should we?" The only way people can see and understand the scope of things is if they looked at it exclusively. The level of brutality is clearly not on the same level. When you look exclusively at this point, as I've said before, is how you determine the degree of this event.

Basically you guys are saying that it's in the past, forget it, cause Japan makes the videogames we play so it's unthinkable they did something so bad and need to apologize for it. China killed a bunch of people themselves, and the body count isn't as high as the holocaust, so it's ok!!!!

That is your attitude.

Sgt Ramond said,
[ QUOTE ]
That said, no one can outdo the Chinese when it comes to killing Chinese people. The "Great Leap Forward" policiesof the 1950s predictably led to a massive famine which claimed the lives of perhaps 30,000,000 people.

The Cultural Revolution killed as many as 10,000,000 people in the 60's and 70's.

Since these periods were presumably more disasterous in terms of lost lives, one would think that the Chinese would be protesting the Chinese Communist Party. Maybe they don't becasue they will be shot if they do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the attitude of the thread. I feel like I'm justified in saying what I want about people who think like this for obvious reasons. I don't see what your problem is with me expressing my strong impression about this incident, just as a Jewish person have a right to express his or her views about the holocaust, just as an American have a right to express his or her views about 9/11.

Just for the record, I did read the link before I typed my response, and I did mistakenly include a detail that the article gave, but I still stand by the fact that something like wikipedia doesn't do jack shit to describe the things that happened, same with any other atrocities like the holocaust.

You seem to be saying what I'm saying, but criticizing me for using stronger words, what is the purpose? Is it something personal?

Like what Andy said, why is it when other countries are dissatified with what the US does, it's wrong, but when someone does anything to the US, it's grounds for retaliation? Why did people react so strongly to 9/11? The body count is not nearly as high as say..... Iraq or Kosovo.

Based on you guy's logic, who should apologize?
This thread has turned into a Japanese wannabe convention, so like what Ice-9 said, I'm just gonna ignore this.

 

Re: Nationalism

No one says that Japan is blameless. No one said that the Japanese did nothing wrong in WWII.

What I have been saying is that far worse calamities and injustices have befallen the Chinese since WWII and these have been largely whitewashed out of textbooks as well. It is strange for the Chinese to ask of Japan something that they will not do themselves.

The Chinese fellow who wrote the editorial in the NY Times said basically the same thing. So much for the genius idea of "you guys don't know what you're talking about because you are not Chinese."

You and Ice-9 can take your lame-brained nationalism elsewhere, like you've been threatening to do. Another babyish technique, if I do say so.

Maybe you can go to the message boards at www.peoplesrepublicofchina.com. Your ideas are pretty Pro-China so you don't have to worry about being executed. Just get all pissy when somebody criticizes The Great Leap Forward or the Tienanmen Square Massacre or Tibet. You'll fit right in.

(Wow, that link works. I was only joking.)

 

Re: Nationalism

[ QUOTE ]
This thread has turned into a Japanese wannabe convention, so like what Ice-9 said, I'm just gonna ignore this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too bad. As with Ice, I value your insight and your opinions on the situation of China/Japan and of the events of this thread.

For all those out there who also feel that this is just now uh, a japanese wannabe convention and don't want anything to do with this thread, feel free to check back here from time to time as I will continue posting important events/information (as I have been) that relate to the China/Japan situation and indeed China in general. I will pay very close attention to China's movement from as many sources that I can find, because I will soon live there for a duration of one year or more and wish to know her current state from many angles. I might as well post the interesting things that I find here, so I can witness opinion (possible new information) and so i can come back and review my findings from time to time in the future.

Thanks to all who have so far shared their opinions, even if their opinions are merely the opinions of other peeps opinions. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CHINA TAIWAN UPDATE

Polls suggest public supports Lien Chan's China trip:

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2005/05/02/2003252823

 

Re: Nationalism

yes please continue neko. i find this very interesting, the facts that is, not peoples opinions.

small world neko, im gonna live in beijng for a year as well next year, as part of my uni course. I could ask a couple of chinese folk and foreigners who go to china alot about this subject as well.

keep it going.

 

Re: Nationalism

Srider,

Man, I think you're really full of shit. I don't have much more to say about China & Japan, but you're shooting so much TOTAL BULLSHIT out of your mouth, it's insane.

Srider wrote:

"Everyone in this thread is saying, "look at what China does themselves, so Japan is ok in doing what they are doing." "

No one has EVER,

EVER

EVER said any kind of bullshit like this. Before making our points about China, Sgtramrod and myself both said, respectively:

"I have no idea how many Chinese were killed by the brutal Japanese conquest. Those were definitely horrific atrocities."

"because what happened in Nanking was really horrible... what they did shouldn't be covered up or forgetten"

I even linked to a site where people with little or no info could learn more about the event in question. I talked about a film that shows in very graphic scenes of violence some of the things that happened to the Chinese in Nanking at the hands of the Japanese. All of these things paint the Japanese in a very poor light. Yet, the only thing you can think of to say is:

"Basically you guys are saying that it's in the past, forget it, cause Japan makes the videogames we play so it's unthinkable they did something so bad and need to apologize for it.

That is your attitude.

This thread has turned into a Japanese wannabe convention"

No one has EVER, EVER said Japan shouldn't apologize.
No one has EVER, EVER said Japan shouldn't apologize.
No one has EVER, EVER said Japan shouldn't apologize.

this is some dumbass point you keep bringing up (that people here are somehow suggesting that Japan shouldn't apoligize, not that apologizing is dumb). Even AFTER Neko linked to this:

"Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi on Friday made the most public apology in a decade for his country's bloody march through Asia in the 1930s and 1940s"

and posted this, based on his own research:

"I read in many places that Japan HAS officially apologized to China 17 times!"

"JAPAN’S prime ministers and its emperor have apologised to China for the brutal conduct of the occupying Japanese army in the 1930s-1940s on 17 occasions since the two countries restored diplomatic relations in 1972. Seven years ago, Japan also made a written apology for its harsh colonial rule of the Korean peninsula, in 1910-45."

Find in the thread where I said Japan shouldn't apologize... it isn't there. It's something that you're making up to try and mount an offense against what you see to be attackers to your way of seeing the issue. Along with all the HORSESHIT that YOU, YOU, YOU keep bringing up about the Holocaust, and now 9-11. The only things anyone else has mentioned are crimes China committed against it's own people.

You and Jeff first tried to say Chinese people were the only ones allowed to comment. Then Jeff bowed out when he couldn't really get people to see things the way he wanted. Then you went out on your strange limb about the Holocaust (which was kinda counter-productive to your arguement actually, you only ended up sounding offensive, anyone can see from info around that what happened in Nanking was horribly brutal). Now you're gonna bow out as well, while firing shots about how we're all just defending Japan because we're all otaku who worship Japan...

you're really full of shit, David. No one here has ever defended what Japan did. What has been going on is that people used the platform to talk about how China treats it's own citizens. If this is offensive to you as someone of Chinese descent, I'm sorry.

When I was in College, I minored in Chinese language and History. My teacher was an 81 year old man named Ji Zhong "C.C." Huang. CC spent 20 years of his life in a prison camp during the Cultural Revolution for being an intellectual. All his work and books (including his translations of Shakespeare plays into Mandarin) were burned. That's offensive to me.

I guess my point is that maybe the reason people bring up these issues could be this:

I guess maybe people around the rest of the world, who trade with China, who are threatened by China, oppressed by China or otherwise, they might care more about the way China behaves today, or in the recent past, than how Japan behaved 75 years ago. In 2005, when China threatened to forcefully take over Taiwan, still holds power over Tibet, still has questionable ideas about freedoms for it's people etc etc. I think it's reasonable that people are more concerned with these things in today's world.

Does it excuse what Japan did? Of course not. Should it be forgotten? Never. Should it be used in school textbooks to show Japanese children the horrors of war? Hopefully.

I've been to Japan several times, and have many close Japanese friends. I'm pretty familiar with the things I don't like about Japanese culture and Japanese attitudes, especially towards people that aren't Japanese. I can say the same thing about being American, I have no illusions about all of the dumbass, horrible things our gov't does.

If you don't want to talk to people in this thread anymore about China/Japan, maybe you can Jeff can just send PM's to each other about how "outsiders" who "have no right" to an opinion are all Japan-loving idiots. That's fine, but please stop trying to smear all of your bullshit all over us. You're just making yourself look worse.

you know, this reminds me of the thread about the BT DVD, where you blamed all the problems of the US VF Arcade scene on SOA, when SOA has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with arcade releases in the US. You spewed all this garbage in such an authoritarian way, but you had no idea what you were talking about. It's not my opinion, it's a fact: you don't understand how the company works. You know who made all the decisions to cut the extra features for the arcade in other countries? AM2!!!! the Japanese (gasp)! Sega of America has nothing to do with Sega Enterprises, which is the arcade division of Sega, worldwide.

So please stop firing garbage out of your mouth which is either emotional bullshit, trumped up facts, or half-assed attempts to smear people with real points.

Bryan

Sorry to waste so much space with this crap, but I don't like Srider trying to make everyone in else in the thread look like an ass who's so in love with Japanese video games that they're brainwashed into being anti-Chinese.

 

Re: Nationalism

Just to clarify--I don't think this is an issue that only Chinese can comment on. I never said that. In fact, I had written that even though I am ethnically Chinese, I don't even think *I* am qualified to comment or judge.

Also remember that my "disagreement" with PROFESSOR RAMROD is based on the LINK between the way China records its own history and China's reaction towards Japan's perceived lack of remorse.

I say -- no relevance. Japan needs to apologize no matter how horrible the CCP was in the past.

PROFESSOR RAMROD says -- hell relevant. He implied that China can't demand an apology unless its own government comes clean. I say bullshit, nobody who has been personally affected by the Rape of Nanking would ever think that. That's where the naivete lies.

That's how this thread got started.

I bowed out because I know I'm not going to change anybody's mind, plus I don't really feel qualified to comment on this subject anyway. Further, I tend to ignore ad hominem arguments based on personal attacks (Bungle's preferred method of debate). I jump in now because, like everyone else, I hate to be misrepresented.

Chinese nationalism....laugh. I'm Indonesian. I grew up in Singapore. I was educated under the U.S. system. Some people like to make shit up to stir emotions as a means of propaganda when there's nothing else to go with--ironic isn't it considering criticisms of the CCP?

 

Ok reverse it. Tons of white hicks have killed other white hicks, but when a black guy kills a white hick in Texas he gets a lethal injection according to SgtRamrod.

Violence among African Americans is a major issue for them in America but the community deals with it by themselves; when interracial violence occurs on a much smaller scale it gets more notice by the African American community.

The lesson learned here is that while crimes may have been commited by chinese to other chinese a much smaller crime in scale, such as the Japanese invading, takes on just as big a role in the eyes of many chinese.

The second lesson learned, is that if you aren't Chinese and from Mainland china don't expect to have an opinion that matters to other Chinese. You are like a Spanish guy giving an opinion about white/black interacial tension; u just don't know what it is like unless you are one of the parties involved. Even if you do have an opinion it will not matter to either the Chinese or Japanese;...unless of course you are a politcal leader of somekind. VFDC Political Ambassador? /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Re: Nationalism

OK Jeff, because I don't want to mis-represent you, you said:

"Just to clarify--I don't think this is an issue that only Chinese can comment on. I never said that."

so, what does this mean?:

"Leave it alone outsider."

Bryan

 

Re: Nationalism

From an article concerning possible protesting in the beginning of May:

In late April, anti-Japan Internet sites were buzzing
with comments about protests May 1 and May 4 as much
of China goes on a weeklong public holiday.

But following demands by Japan for an apology and a
special Communist Party meeting to discuss the
demonstrations, Chinese police have issued orders
forbidding participation in unauthorized protests. All
demonstrations in China are illegal unless
pre-approved by police.

Authorities in the province that includes Nanjing
warned residents last week via the Internet and mobile
phone text messages -- the same methods used by
protesters to organize themselves -- against staging
demonstrations. Some Beijing mobile phone users
received a text message from police Saturday not to
spread or believe rumors and to express patriotism
only in legal ways.

A key demonstration coordination website,
japanpig.com, announced on its homepage that it had
closed down its chatrooms, forums and online signature
area.

"We are hereby reminding everyone, no matter where you
are, you should follow the nation's laws and rules,"
the homepage says. "We wish everyone good luck."

Authorities are also monitoring universities. At
Peking University, where some students joined the
April 9 demonstrations, an online forum has been shut
down. Last week the campus circulated a notice not to
allow "groups" onto school grounds May 1-7. At a
communications college in Beijing, campus authorities
have telephoned class monitors to warn against
demonstrations.

University students, who police targeted as a key
anti-Japan activist group, say they are willing to
stop protesting in the short term but want a channel
to express themselves eventually.

[end article]

got as a email from a friend, no article source

 

The Right to an Opinion

[ QUOTE ]
CrewTW said:

Ok reverse it. Tons of white hicks have killed other white hicks, but when a black guy kills a white hick in Texas he gets a lethal injection according to SgtRamrod.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point was that the American justice system is harsher to African American men, especially for crimes comitted against whites.

[ QUOTE ]
Violence among African Americans is a major issue for them in America but the community deals with it by themselves; when interracial violence occurs on a much smaller scale it gets more notice by the African American community.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ideally, government authorities would deal with violence. To the extent that authorites ignore black on black crime it is a travesty.

[ QUOTE ]
The lesson learned here is that while crimes may have been commited by chinese to other chinese a much smaller crime in scale, such as the Japanese invading, takes on just as big a role in the eyes of many chinese.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct that these crimes seem to take on mammoth importance to some Chinese people. For the Chinese people living in China I can understand this. They are not really well schooled in the recent history of their own nation, and the CCP stokes rabid Chinese nationalism.

[ QUOTE ]
The second lesson learned, is that if you aren't Chinese and from Mainland china don't expect to have an opinion that matters to other Chinese. You are like a Spanish guy giving an opinion about white/black interacial tension; u just don't know what it is like unless you are one of the parties involved. Even if you do have an opinion it will not matter to either the Chinese or Japanese;...unless of course you are a politcal leader of somekind. VFDC Political Ambassador? /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your observation that many Chinese people feel this way, however, that does not make them right, especially when "outsiders" studying the country have better access to China's history than the Chinese themselves.

Besides, it is not as if anyone here said, "Japan rules. They invented VF and Hello Kitty and Dragon Ball Z. What has China given the world lately? STFU, bitches!"

People commonly make judgements and have opinions about disputes in which they are not involved. If a person makes an informed comment on something, there is no reason to act like they have right have an opinion on the subject.

People directly involved in disputes are probably not the best judges of the situation. People often are not the best arbiters of their own affairs. That is why we have laws.

Imagine a Nazi saying to someone in 1940, "You can't understand why we have to exterminate the Jews because you are not a German."

You would probably say, "Fuck that. You are wrong and I don't give a fuck if you are German," or at least you would want to say that if you could do so without being shot on site for being a Jew-lover.

I am not calling anyone a Nazi here. I am just saying that is juvenile to tell people that their opinion of a dispute is worthless if they are not the aggrieved party.

Crew TW, I am not trying to jump on your ass here. I think you are just stating what you see as other people's attitudes. It's those attitudes that irritate me.

 

Re: Nationalism

[ QUOTE ]
Leave it alone outsider. I am ethnic Chinese, but even I am only willing to observe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider both Ramrod and myself as outsiders, even though I am ethnic Chinese. Therefore, obviously I don't think this is the exclusive domain of Chinese.

Certainly, Japanese are a major stakeholder. As are Taiwanese, Koreans, and/or any other group affected by Japan's atrocities over that time period. They would not be outsiders.

[ QUOTE ]
A friend's great grandmother was a comfort woman in that war. Understandably, he is a little resentful about how Japan has dealt with this issue. Are you telling him that just because the CCP has not recorded China's history accurately, he should be any less angry?? He's not even from the PRC!

[/ QUOTE ]

My friend is not an outsider, and he's not from the People's Republic of China either.

The point here is that nationalism doesn't define who is or is not an outsider...it's whether a person has a personal connection to those atrocities.

I hope this clears that aspect up.

 

Re: The Right to an Opinion

SgtRamrod you are right....and so am I. If you or other people are wondering what I mean; you basically stated how the world works.

Forget for a moment about races or nationality. If a person is committing a crime against someone it's always wrong. If you are a third party and you wish to get involved you have two choices.

To have an opinion or to have an opinion that matters.

You see the Chinese consider this their problem against the Japanese; in the scope of things we are all an unrelated third party wishing to have an opinion that actually matters.

In the case where a crime occurs you instantly have two choices. You can think its wrong or you can chose to become involved.

Writing such as this carries no weight and the opinion becomes meaningless. To some Chinese they would even feel offended that we are discussing the matter not being Chinese or Japanese.

Unfortunately things like my friend said this, or I learned this in school simply becomes hearsay. It simply does not matter how educated or how many friends you have from China or Japan. Your opinion will matter by being a PRC or Japanese citizen.

<u>The fault in this thread is the pointing at each other saying I am right and I am wrong. None of you are right or wrong and some would find if offensive, the direction the discussion and thread has taken. </u>

 

Re: The Right to an Opinion

[ QUOTE ]
SgtRamrod said:

You are correct that these crimes seem to take on mammoth importance to some Chinese people. For the Chinese people living in China I can understand this. They are not really well schooled in the recent history of their own nation, and the CCP stokes rabid Chinese nationalism.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
SgtRamrod said:
I agree with your observation that many Chinese people feel this way, however, that does not make them right, especially when "outsiders" studying the country have better access to China's history than the Chinese themselves.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have no objections on foreigners discussing this issue. In fact I am very interested in what others think about these events.

However I can't agree with you that we are not well schooled of our recent history. I can tell you that 90% of my classmates in the school clearly understood what happened during that time period, and most of us had no illusions about our government. Yes those history books in our schools are rubbish, but we have other sources of information. Books documenting that part of the history have been published, and although the number of titles are not great, once published they are often the most popular books among Chinese readers. One example is the "Bloody Dusk" by Lao Gui, which I have read ten years ago and believed it does describe the tragedies of Culture Revolution in great detail. There are also TV series and films produced, showing the events of that time period rather accurately. The dirty past and current problems of the government is a common topic for private discussions among Chinese people. You see, although the government has a tight grip on the books used for the schools, the Culture Revolution is not a taboo in other culture areas.

And I think you forget the most important and accurate information source for the Chinese people: our parents. Our last generation went through and experienced that time period first-handedly, I think their stories about the tragedies suffered by them or their friends offer better education than any documentations and reports by foreigners. Now how can you say you Americans or any other foreigners are better informed than the Chinese about our own recent history?

And yes, even though the government commited large crimes against us, even though every Chinese knows that millions of people starved to death during the 1960s due to the govement's ridiculous policy, the war crime commited by the Japanese will always weight heavier. My grandma suffered inhumanly treatment during the Culture Revolution, because of this reason my mother hates the government to guts. But does this makes her less hate the Japanese? No. On the contrary I am sure that she may forgive the Communist Party someday, but she will never forgive the Japanese.

Now let me make my opinion clear: 1. Most Chinese know the crimes of our own government as well as the war crimes of the Japanese. 2. I think these two are completely different and unrelated issues. 3. If the Japanese government and right wings don't change their attitude towards their war crimes, Chinese people will always hate the Japanese more, no matter what the Chinese government does to us, because it's an issue about the dignity of the nation. If you call this nationalism, then so be it.

 

Re: The Right to an Opinion

[ QUOTE ]
Writing such as this carries no weight and the opinion becomes meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Your opinion will matter by being a PRC or Japanese citizen.


[/ QUOTE ]

I understand how you feel. Kind of like how many Americans don't care for the opinions of other countries in many given situations. However, to say something has no meaning is a little much. Meaning can be given or taken in every aspect of life, such as some may feel the meaning of this thread is great and important as it educates (in some areas) those who are unaware of China/Japan and their dealings or at least spark an interest in those to do their own research and some may feel that the meaning of your post was pointless because it did not fall anywhere within such criteria as it merely expresses the opinion of the nature of validity of opinions in relation to one's nationality.

So, to those who are border-line thinking "Should I not write?" because "I have an opinion that does not really matter." IMHO, you should go and find that meaning, you make it matter. Do not rely on others to tell you what does matter and what does not matter, but if you DO want a reason to post then I WILL GIVE YOU ONE: I want to read your opinion, therefore your post does have meaning as it has much meaning to me.

[ QUOTE ]
To some Chinese they would even feel offended that we are discussing the matter not being Chinese or Japanese.

[/ QUOTE ]

And to other Chinese they would feel honored that we are having such a discussion.

If you are interested in Christianity in China, pick up a copy of The Economist and look for this here : http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3896585

EDIT: Just found this picture from the same economist magazine!! Had to go scan it and put it in!