Protesting in China - demanding a Japanese apology

Happy Friends

You are right that I really can't say how much the younger Chinese learn about their history outside of the classeroom. I don't want to give the impression that Americans know more about China than the Chinese. By and large, Americans are pretty ignorant of their own history. I wouldn't be surpised if less than half of Americans couldn't point out China on a map.

What I meant is that for Americans studying Chinese history in Western Universities, they are less likely to have to deal with sources that tell outright lies about Chinese history, like the Chinese textbooks do.

Now back to my main point:

It is hypocritical for China to demand that Japan stop whitewashing its history when China will not do the same.

This isn't to say that Japan shouldn't apologize and tell the truth in its textbooks.

Just that China is hypocritical. Not just because they whitewash the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution and the Tienanmen Square massacre, but most of all because of Tibet.

By whitewashing China's crimes against humanity in Tibet the Chinese are doing something almost exactly analogous to what Japan is doing with the Sino-Japanese War. The chief difference being that the Chinese have been by and large sucessful in their effort at destroying an ancient culture and religion. This makes the Chinese crime of whitewashing the truth about Tibet one of even greater magnitude. For this reason, I have little sympathy for Chinese complaining of the grievous harm done to them by Japanese textbooks. This is not a defense of Japan. I just have the feeling that the protests are largely a nationalistic, anti-Japanese charade and not a principled crusade against bullshit as history in general.

In closing I'd like to state that I don't give a shit if anyone has their feelings hurt by my analysis and opinions. Get mad at me if you want. Get mad at the Chinese lawyer in the NY Times. Get mad at the cartoonist for the Economist. Then wrap yourself in your PRC flag, read your little red book of Quotations from Chairman Mao, and cry yourself to sleep.

 

Re: Happy Friends

Now, that was a great post.

 

Re: Happy Friends

Is it me or is White people the angriest out of everyone in the world? I would figure the Native Americans would be the most pissed off out of all since they got screw royally & the hardest out of anyone in history. If anyone who can bring up a worst case in people getting kill by another race or their own race, you get a cookie. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Angry Whitey McWhitesworth

Sadly, the Native Americans barely make a peep because they are mostly dead.

As for me, I do get a little feisty when it comes to political topics in general, and China in particular. I lived in Taiwan for a year. That gives me plenty of reason to dislike China. (I wish I could score some betel nut and bubble milk tea nowadays) I also have several Tibetan friends and I know members of the Dali Lama's family.

Give me half a chance and I'll launch into an anti-CCP diatribe. Run for cover!

 

Re: China Japan : 2-edge sword, Taiwan has pandas

"Beijing Finds Anti-Japan Propaganda a 2-Edged Sword"

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/03/international/asia/03china.html

In case peeps were wondering about the history of the May protesting (besides 1989) I was speaking of before:

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover, anti-Japan protests have a long and, for the government, a sobering history. A student-led march on May 4, 1919, to protest the decision by World War I Allied powers that allowed Japan to take over Germany's colonial territories in China spawned Chinese resistance against Western colonialism. But the May 4 movement and uprisings in 1931 and 1937 turned against the government.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also:

[ QUOTE ]
BEIJING  Beijing yesterday offered Taiwan a pair of giant pandas and lifted a ban on Chinese tourists visiting the island as goodwill gestures at the end of a historic trip to the mainland by Taiwan opposition leader Lien Chan.


[/ QUOTE ]

Awwwwwwwwwww.... pandas..........=D

From : http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/topstories.aspx?ID=BD4A41924

Finally,

[ QUOTE ]
The University of Colorado's Peter Gries, the author of China's New Nationalism, said: "Anti-Japanese sentiment is in many ways at the core of many of the anxieties and uncertainties that Chinese have about their own place in the world."

"One of the reasons it's coming out now is that under Mao Zedong the Chinese were not really allowed to think about their suffering in World War II," Mr Gries said.

"The Chinese were forced to tell a tale of heroic victory, where the Communist Party defeated the Japanese. That was the story that the new Communist Party needed to tell, and the Communist Party staked its legitimacy on its nationalist credentials."


[/ QUOTE ]

From another good article talking about the possibility of chinese directing their protest toward their government found here : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4508393.stm

 

Omega Panda

I'd bet that those pandas are genetically programmed to kill everything in sight if Taiwan every declares its sovereignty.

 

Re: Omega Panda

[ QUOTE ]
SgtRamrod said:

I'd bet that those pandas are genetically programmed to kill everything in sight if Taiwan every declares its sovereignty.

[/ QUOTE ]

what, like THIS!?

http://media.skoopy.com/vids/vid_00526.wmv

 

Re: Omega Panda

Pan Pan NOOOO!!! WHY?!?!?!?

"Beijing Closes Tiananmen Square on Student Anniversary"

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-5-4/28462.html

and

"China stops '5/4' protests"

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/04/news/china.php

 

Ethnic Nationalism

I came across this today on Juan Cole's blog. Not specifically on China or Japan, but relevant criticism of bullshit as history. It deals with the New York Times dubious stance against professors at Columbia.

[ QUOTE ]
The David Project wants Middle East historians to reproduce faithfully in the classroom the Zionist master narrative as the "true" version of history. We aren't going to do that, and nobody can make us do it, and if anyone did make us do it, it would be destructive of academic, analytical understandings of history. Next the Serbs will be demanding that we explain why the Bosnians had to be suppressed, and the Russians will object to any attempt to understand the roots of Chechen terrorism, and the Chinese will object to our teaching about Taiwan. The American Nazi Party will maintain that the Third Reich is presented unsympathetically in university history classes, etc. etc. Ethnic nationalisms if allowed to dictate the teaching of history would destroy the entire discipline.


[/ QUOTE ]

The Whole Entry

 

Re: China and North Korea

[ QUOTE ]
``The U.S. must think about being more flexible with North Korea,'' said Guan An-ping, a managing partner in Anping & Associates law firm in Beijing and former legal adviser to Vice Premier Wu Yi when she was at the foreign trade ministry. ``You can't just demand that North Korea disarm first without giving it the assurance that you won't attack. It must be give and take. You can't just demand North Korea to step back without stepping back yourself.''

[/ QUOTE ]

whole article: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a_TRAS80vkag&refer=us

[ QUOTE ]
But China will only be prepared to take bolder action if Washington too is prepared to show flexibility. Beijing's view remains that placing too much pressure on Pyongyang without offering it a way to climb down gracefully will only push North Korea in a corner that could lead to war. That means pressuring Washington to show flexibility over such issues as offering measures to satisfy North Korea's economic and security needs, and being prepared to accept an initial freeze of Pyongyang's plutonium program without immediately insisting on its ultimate objective of "complete, verifiable, and irreversible denuclearization."

[/ QUOTE ]

whole article: http://bcsia.ksg.harvard.edu/publication.cfm?ctype=article&item_id=1154

 

Re: China Text

Like Japan's, Chinese Textbooks Are Adept at Rewriting History
Official educational materials skip key events that may embarrass the Communist Party.

By Mark Magnier, Times Staff Writer

BEIJING  When Li Xuanyao, a student at Beijing's No. 55 Middle School, wants to learn about the Great Leap Forward, she has her work cut out for her. Mao Tse-tung's disastrous 1950s policy, which saw 30 million Chinese die of starvation, is relegated to a few paragraphs in her 163-page history textbook.

The text blames bad central planning for its failure and is quick to add: "During the Great Leap Forward, every village in China built its commune. Members of the commune could eat in its dining hall free of charge."

Although Xuanyao's history teachers have taught her a lot about Japanese atrocities, she said, they are reluctant to talk about the Great Leap Forward. And they never mention the deadly Tiananmen Square protests of 1989.

"Studying Chinese history is very important because it helps increase our knowledge and our patriotism," said Xuanyao, 16, dressed in purple jeans and a matching backpack. "I wasn't taught anything about Tiananmen. But what the Japanese did, particularly the Nanjing massacre, is unforgivable. Remembering this is very, very important for our national pride."

China has criticized Japan in recent weeks for whitewashing its militarist history, focusing in particular on a junior high school textbook recently approved by Tokyo. A wave of anti-Japanese protests s wept the world's most populous nation.

A close look at China's corresponding textbook, "Chinese History  Textbook for Junior High School," however, finds several areas where China's official history appears to have gaps of its own.

"Yes, what Japan did in World War II is horrible," said Sam Crane, Asian studies professor at Williams College in Massachusetts. "But the embarrassing fact for the Communist Party, and one that is not taught in Chinese schools, is that the party itself is responsible for many more deaths of Chinese people than those caused by Japanese militarism."

Historians and China scholars say an underlying theme in many Chinese textbooks is the country's victimization at the hands of foreign powers, particularly the Japanese. Although this is true, they say, China tends to underplay the long periods that it dominated its neighbors.

The focus on being a victim can easily spark social indignation and the sort of emotional outpouring and vi olence seen in recent weeks, some argue. Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura echoed this theme last month on a TV talk show, accusing Beijing of indoctrinating its students with an unbalanced view of the past.

"There is a tendency toward this in any country," he said. "But the Chinese textbooks are extreme in the way they uniformly convey the 'our country is correct' perspective."

Machimura added that Japan would consider mounting its own review of Chinese history textbooks. According to a survey released last month by Japan's Asahi newspaper, more than 80% of Japanese believe that China's nationalistic education system encouraged the recent protest, which saw Japan's embassy and consulates attacked, Japanese cars overturned and businesses vandalized.

In recent days, Beijing has moved to quell the demonstrations. Last month, officials detained 42 anti-Japanese protesters, some caught on security cameras hurling bottles, and paraded them on television in a warning to the nation. The government, apparently fearful that the protesters could turn their focus on it, wanted to prevent further disturbances before the historically significant May 1 and May 4 holidays.

In addition to ignoring the Tiananmen Square massacre, China's main junior high history text makes short work of most of the surrounding decade.

Under chapter subheadings such as "Great Achievements of Socialist Construction," the text skips from Deng Xiaoping's market-oriented policy after 1978 to the return of Hong Kong to Chinese rule in 1997.

"These textbooks don't make any sense," said Jasper Becker, author of "Hungry Ghosts," about the Great Leap Forward. "All sorts of things are brushed under the carpet."

The "Chinese History" textbook, the most popular of seven approved by the Education Ministry for nationwide use, also gives the Communist Party a disproportionate role in fighting the Japanese in the 1930s and '40s. In fact, many historians say, most of the heavy lifting was done by the Nationalist Party, or Kuomintang, whose members fled to Taiwan in 1949 after losing the civil war to Mao's forces.

Mao's 1966-76 Cultural Revolution, a period of chaos marked by purges and the tyranny of the fanatical Red Guards, does merit a (five-page) chapter that concedes that Mao made a "wrong analysis of the class struggle."

But much of the blame is pinned on Mao's fourth wife, Jiang Qing, part of the Gang of Four, for trying to take over the party. Nor is there any mention of the extreme suffering people endured.

The book also doesn't explain how modern China has chosen its leaders, which until recently involved purges and intrigue. Nor does it cover the 1951 occupation of Tibet or the exile of the Dalai Lama.

"Most Chinese end up believing this government view of history," said Dugarjab Hotala, an ethnic Mongolian who grew up in China's far west before immig rating to the United States. "While a lot of students don't take history seriously, unconsciously it becomes part of your thinking."

Officials with the Education Ministry and the textbook publisher could not be reached for comment.

Chinese historians, however, say the field is becoming more objective. "No country has perfect textbooks, and China is no exception," said Zhang Sheng, history professor at Nanjing University. "But they are improving. While 30 years ago they were based mostly on class struggle, now they're increasingly based on facts."

Zhang said that three decades is not enough time for Chinese historians to come to a definitive view of the Cultural Revolution. "Those who experienced the Cultural Revolution drew their own lessons, so you don't need a lot of words in the chapter on this," he added.

Chinese history is a sensitive enough topic that the nation's cyber-police block websites on key events, and history professors worry about losin g their jobs for expressing views that don't follow the party line.

Bill Xia, head of a North Carolina-based company called Dynamic Internet Technology, which allows Chinese to get around government filters by using its system of rapidly changing Web addresses, said he's seen a big increase in Chinese surfers looking for "unofficial" views of Chinese history since the rise of Sino-Japanese tensions.

"The Communist Party says the Japanese cover up their textbooks. But when people get the real story, they see that Beijing is covering up history, too," Xia said. "When people get more information, they start thinking for themselves, which makes the government concerned."

One historian, who asked not to be identified, said China used the history issue as a weapon against the Japanese when it was convenient. "It's useful as a diplomatic card, to cover up the real issue: economic confrontation," he said. "Domestically, the Communist Party has crafted its own version o f history to bolster its legitimacy. That's why it's still impossible to look objectively at Mao Tse-tung, the Cultural Revolution or Tiananmen Square."

The way junior high student Xuanyao sees it, the history that Chinese learn in school helps unify them. The Great Leap Forward was a good thing, she said, because it allowed China to develop so quickly after years of Japanese occupation. "I really support those anti-Japanese protesters," she said. "I think what they did is great."


Yin Lijin in The Times' Beijing Bureau contributed to this report.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-history8may08,1,7876191.story?coll=la-headlines-world&ctrack=1&cset=true

 

Re: emerging "rival"

Some China Daily links.

Pentagon report: China an emerging rival
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-05/25/content_445561.htm

China-Japan ties soured by shrine visits
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-05/25/content_445352.htm

Neeks

 

Re: the Great "Firewall" (of China)

update on the recent internet crackdown:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=31&art_id=qw1117268462827C553

N

 

Re: China: Containment Won't Work

Washington Post
China: Containment Won't Work

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/12/AR2005061201533.html

 

Re: China: Containment Won't Work

I don't know any Chinese or Japanese people, so I don't have any first hand knowledge of the relationship between Chinese and Japanese people. Still I am giving my two cents.

My two cents.

The wrong committed by Japan against China deserves an apology. As I understand it the Japanese PM has apologized several times. I don't think the question is whether or not Japan should apologize. I think the question is, "who should they apologize to?"

I don't think the Chinese government has the moral right to disregard or marginalize an apology on behalf of the Chinese people. They don't represent the Chinese people.

The Chinese government as, I understand it to be, doesn't rule for the benefit of Chinese people; It rules in spite of the Chinese people. The Chinese people don't force their will on the government; the government forces its will on the Chinese people. Until problems with their government are corrected the Chinese people can't honestly repair relations with anyone, because you can't know for certain whose will is reflected in the word of the Chinese government. Is it the majority of the people or is it the minority of people who rule their government? Most likely it reflects the will of the minority who control the government.

So when the Japanese PM offers an apology, exactly who is it in China that doesn't accept it, and how reliable is the idea that the Chinese people can't (or won't) accept this apology and move on? Exactly who is that says more is needed, and if Japan were to offer more, who would they give it to? Would reparation given to the Chinese government for the benefit of the Chinese people actually make it to the Chinese people?

The act warrants an apology, but a true apology and acceptance is impossible in the current political climate. The Chinese people have to sweep the porch in China before they can sweep the porch in the Japan?

 

Re: China: Containment Won't Work

I think you underestimate the extent to which the Chinese support their authoritarian governement. Yes it is in part due to propaganda, but it also is a function of what I would say Chinese cultural pathologies.

For one, the Chinese have a great fear of social chaos and instability. This, I believe, allows them to accept authoritarian rule more easily. They see it as a lesser evil than a breakdown of the social order.

Another is conformity. Asian cultures in general and the Chinese in particular emphasize conformity to a great degree. An example of this would be the Chinese perception af Mao. If you ask Chinese people about their opinion of Mao, you will often get the frightening response of "60% good 40% bad."

That people would essentially cast one of the 20th century's most notorious dictators as "60% good" is troubling enough. The fact that so many Chinese will say the same thing even now, to the exact percentage, is downright frightening.

 

Re: China: Containment Won't Work

Perhaps I do underestimate the degree to which they support their government. However, if they continue to think dictators are good, they are going to suffer another tragedy at the hands on an oppressor.

P.S. I think its more frightening that they now want to buy one of the largest oil producers in the US.

 

Oh Dear

I don't know what to think about it exactly. Who was it that said people get the government they deserve?

Nowadays, its not exactly dictators who rule the nation, but a fascist ruling oligarchy masquerading as "Communinst."

What oil company is the PRC going to buy? Is it the PRC or a collection of Chinese investors? This is depressing news. It's like Darth Vader buying Umbrella Corporation. Oil companies are bad enough. Chinese oil interests are already in large part to blame for the ongoing genocide in Sudan. Let's see what happens when they get even more powerful.

 

Re: Oh Dear

I think the oil company is called Unocal. Its a state run oil company called CNOOC that is trying to buy it. I don't think any state run company should be allowed to buy businesses in the capital markets. They should only be allowed to buy currencies and other government debt.

It they buy it, then we have willfully allowed a clear transgression of the free enterprise system. How would anyone control their behavior, no one could make them sell.

Article about Unocal and CNOOC

Another related article