Re: Jacky/Sarah and Jeet Kune Do (open-minded only)

but surely, if someone has a huge strength advantage, the wristlock can be powered out of?

 

To brute force out of a wrist lock where someone is applying 50 lbs of force, you'd need to apply anywhere from 150 to 200 lbs of force with only the muscles in the back of your wrist, and your wrist will tear apart long before those pressures are reached.

 

i see. well, like i said, i don't claim to know much about fighting, my point was about VF......

 

[ QUOTE ]
my sensei was tiny

[/ QUOTE ]
Sifu George Xu, from Shangai, (Lan Shou and Chen)
is 59 Kg... He make fly away people of 125 kg like nothin'...
Sifu Zu Yao Wu's elbow (baji quan) destroys almost everything, think about a human being's chest...
Only some examples of how a tiny little chinese old man(65-70 years old) can kick butts... /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

a question: is it true that big people (even people who are well trained) are slower to move than smaller people?
because the way i see it, is the bigger you are, the bigger (and stronger) your muscles are, so you should be able to move faster than someone who is smaller. (i do understand that a smaller person has less bady mass to move). this is why i was wondering who would normally be faster....

 

You may be assuming that the larger fighter will approach the aikido dude the way the aikido dude is familiar with being approached (attacked)...an adage of pro boxing is that a large man with skills will invariably defeat a smaller man with skills; a large martial artist with experience using his size, weight, and reach advantage is a stronger fighter no matter how good the smaller martial artist is, barring luck. Nine out of ten times a smaller fighter is going to get crushed in hand-to-hand...speed won't mean a thing, unless you're talking about the little guy plucking eyes or something, but even then the large fighter EXPECTS that, anticipates it, and will negate it the way any martial artist would, only he's bigger, stronger, and can reach you before you reach him.

 

A guy who weighs 200 and is in shape can close pretty damn fast on you; men 240 and up and in shape (say like a pro linebacker) can still run twice as fast as I can, in mediocre shape...a smaller man's jab may be much faster, but without the power of a larger man's, and that's what it comes down to. I had a big fat-ass 300 pounder shove me one time when I was a teen, and I'll say he wasn't the fastest guy, but he sure got to me before my skinny ass could run, and he sent that ass flying with the flat of his palm...I mean, the sad truth is, bigger is stronger with just a percentage drop-off in speed, and stronger means they hit harder, which means little ass gets flattened. The martial artist and author Loren Christensen, whose FIGHTER'S FACT BOOK is a pretty strong, realistic approach to street defense, pointed out you'd better run if you can from a larger man who knows what he's doing in a fight. I didn't want to hear that, and it pissed me off, but my experiences tell me it's accurate. Shotguns were designed ESPECIALLY for oversized asskickers, I think.

 

Yes, it's generally true that larger people are slower (reflexes, hand speed, foot speed, reaction time) than larger people.

You're counting on the aikido expert to be stupid and try to close with the grappler or engage in some stupidity as well. Given that both people are equally skilled, equally deadly, equally cautious, and both determined to kill the other person, it boils down to who lands the first grapple or strike. The thing that makes the difference when fighting is speed. If you're throwing a haymaker, and I jab you, your haymaker is going to lose almost all of its force. If you're rushing, and I slam a forearm into the side of your head, you're going to be seeing stars and totally lose your balance even if I don't cave in your skull. If you're trying to wrestle me around and get control and I poke out one of your eyes... if you grab me and I hit you in the armpit... yada yada yada. If I'm fast enough to do these things, you're screwed. All this UFC stuff you see is more like schoolyard fighting - look at the rules of engagement for UFC, and you'll see all the stuff that's illegal. The rules favor larger fighters (partially as a side effect of trying to protect the fighters).

And I have seen a 145 lb 5'9" old man break 3 cinderblocks with a riken (a stun blow to the nose), 2 cinderblocks with a standard chopping block, and pulverize a cinderblock with a spinning hip strike (how the hell do you stand the pain while conditioning your pelvis to that point?). He didn't use shims when breaking. Supposedly his lunge punch landed at 2000 psi impact in 0.21 seconds. That means if you blink as he's throwing the punch, you have 0.1 seconds to react, or whatever bone he hits is pulverized, such as your skull. He swept people and they landed on their head - his sweeping motion ended and your legs were at his shoulder height. No one ever landed *anything* on him successfully while he was here, not even the state kumite champion who was 6'4" - not one strike. He was completely untouchable. His blocks were attacks in themselves - he would leave bone bruises where his blocks hit if he thought your attack was stupid or inept, and he wasn't trying to injure people, just 'teach' you - the hard way. If he had wanted to hurt someone in the dojo, there was nothing they could have done to stop him, except maybe shoot him with a gun they smuggled in or dive out the window into the dumpster below and weld it shut. Every part of him was lethal. Shoulder strikes would blow people completely off the mat, hip strikes would flatten you or if you were lucky enough to be on your toes and keep balance instead of trying to defend from the feint he'd set you up with, they'd knock you about four feet away. He could strike nerves in your arms that would leave your whole arm numb and tingly, and this was while you were sparring, not performing demonstrations. Even when he grappled with you, you couldn't hit him - he'd grab and strike in the same motion, and he'd much rather hit you than grab you - he said once,'If you can grab, you can strike'. Hell, if I could hit as hard as he could, I would never have bothered grappling, either. I swear he could grab the threads on your gi and lock you down by them. He'd throw a feint and an attack simultaneously, and you'd be faced with a real life 'nitaku'. He moved like a ghost - he just seemed to glide from place to place, except when he was doing katas. Then every foot placement sounded like someone dropping a bowling ball on the floor. I expected we'd have to buff out dents in the wood deck when he left to return to Japan.

I used to think like you guys did - a big man vs a little man, the little man is in trouble, no matter how good they are. Then I saw this guy. This little old man was what people bullshit about when they talk about 'living weapons'. He was *still* lightning fast, he hit harder than I ever believed anyone could, he was untouchable, ungrabbable, always on balance, deadly in every direction, and never left himself open except to sucker you in, where he'd hammer you and you'd have a nice blue bruise on your chest or your shoulder to remind you not to fall for that again. If you reached for him, you were going to be hit. Any opening you left, he exploited. There is no way anyone could have closed to grapple with him and survive. He fought like high level kendo masters fence - constant motion, always attacking and defending at the same time - punch-punch-deflect&kick-deflect&punch-kick oh hell his knife hand is touching my throat game over. He sounds like a superhero or some guy from a movie, but it was real life.

When I saw him, I understood what people mean by 'transcending'. He had definitely transcended past 'martial art'. It was just 'art'. At the risk of sounding incredibly corny (if I already haven't), it was more like a ballet of deadly possibilities. My mind was blown when I saw him, because I realized I'd never even approach being as good as he was, not even if I spent the rest of my life training. If we ever run into any aliens and we have to fight them hand to hand, I hope they can resurrect him, because he's the best I've ever seen by orders of magnitude.

 

Oh, and iron fist, pro boxing bears about as much resemblance to 'real fighting' as dueling with pistols does to war. The reason pro boxing favors larger fighters is because of the rules. With those pillows on, the lightweight doesn't stand a chance. Take the gloves off and put them out there, and you might end up with the heavyweight retiring in the 6th round because of cuts and swelling caused by jabs. If you've watched much boxing, you've probably seen heavyweight sluggers chasing after heavyweight boxers for several round - and I'm pretty sure the lightweight isn't going to go toe to toe with the heavyweight. It's hard to fight when you can't see because your eyes are swelling shut. That's why thumbs in the eye and raking with the laces are illegal, jefe.

 

Just for the record, a word of cautionfor anybody reading this thread who might be contemplating the possibilty of taking up a martial art:

While Shaolin is right to a degree, i.e. with REALLY SHITLOADS of skill and technizzel (I'm talking MASTERY here) the little fella might take out the bigger one.

Nonetheless, the level of skill where SIZE MATTERS LESS will not be reached by 99% of all recreational (read: non professional) martial artists EVER.

For the vast majority of us, however, size DOES matter (*insert shlong joke here*) and will continue to matter.
Do not kid yourself!

And for the love of God, if a dude twice your size grabs you do not, I repeat DO NOT go for a joint lock! Instead scream as loud as you can, because you're about to face the ownage.

N.
(* who has beaten a fair share of unskilled big guys but gets raped by skilled fucks twice his size*)

 

Hah

I was waiting for someone to do a realitycheck in this thread m8 - GG /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/KiwE

 

Re: Hah

Yeah, it's a lot harder to keep the big guy away than one might think. Not all small guys are Bruce Lee/Jet Li/Jackie Chan. And the big guy can afford to make mistakes, but if the small guy slips up just once - it's over. Kind of like Potemkin vs Chipp. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Re: Hah

BURP! /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

Re: ma dai...

This discussion has turned into: " Who is the winner if a big man and a tiny one beat'em up"? Outstanding.

 

Re: ma dai...

I agree with Serb completely. For 99.9% of the population, size does matter. The discussion started off with two people at the very pinnacle of their disciplines, one large, one small. For 'average' people, yes, run like hell from a bigger guy who appears to know even remotely what he's up to. Unless you know you can do enough damage to take him out very fast, AND you're willing to do so, you're at a severe disadvantage. Like self defense trainers always emphasize, having a gun does you no good if you aren't willing to pull the trigger.

The main issue is the level of the engagement. In a 'normal' non-lethal fight, where two people are just hitting each other but not trying to kill each other, the big guy has a huuuuuge advantage - he can usually take much more punishment than the smaller guy can, he has more reach, and since you're not willing to injure him severely, he can risk closing with you without worrying about much more than a broken nose, usually. For example, you're not going to stop a pro football linebacker from charging at you with mere pain alone - you'll have to kill him, cripple him, or knock him out, because his entire job is nothing but pain,. You pull a gun, you'll see the big guy back off, because he's worried about the damage he'll take - that's what I mean about level of engagement. If your opponent knows that if you get a clean strike in, he's dead, it turns into a whole new ballgame, and speed suddenly becomes more important than nearly anything else.

 

Yah man. I dig. Though I just think it's different hitting a wall or stationary object than hitting a human skull, or body, in motion. But regardless, I'm talking about most marginal practitioners of street defense (which every law-abiding citizen should be anyway) rather than Pai Mei. "I own this arm. I want it strong." I don't mean to go on about this, but I'm fascinated with ass-kicking in the real world...my belief, firmly, is that each human being in a physical confrontation with someone else will do things, have quirks in their "styles" that will mind-fuck another, and not even phase someone else. Sometimes it's a longer reach, or speed, or it might be as simple as one guy likes grappling and the other doesn't. Whatever it is, it's what makes almost every great pro boxing match different, say what you will...no two men fight EXACTLY the same. There are so many psychological factors involved as well; maybe that's why bigger men have an advantage even more than in physicality...they're big daddy come to whip that ass for our getting in trouble. Know what I mean? I don't want to downplay a master martial artist at all, because those fuckers have developed an "art" through technique, and I believe a true aikido expert or black belt will take out well over half of everyone who comes. Still, frankly, I might still put my money on a forty year old Phillie brother raised in the slums...THAT guy has lived in extreme violence all his life, is well and ready made for it, whereas most "martial artists" have maybe accidentally bloodied their noses while sparring, before going out for expresso or a beer with their college girlfriends.