REAL Kung Fu

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

Holy crap, someone else that appreciates real wrestling! BTW REAL Pro Wrestling DVD season 1 is out!

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

Joe Eigo would beat anyone in MMA, he's just too fast.

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

Bruce Lee would pwn all these motherfuckers if he were still around ...

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

These types of arguments are priceless for all sorts of reasons! The biggest issue I have with them is there are usually three camps of people: Those with experience (training live) against a multitude of people, styles, sizes; those with no experience outside of point sparring, experience steeped with unrealistic set ups or conditions; but the last camp is the best (and oddly enough, most vocal)...they're the ones who took at most a year of karate or something similar but watched a ton of movies. These guys know A LOT.

Personally I'd trade everything in for the first camp. They will be the only ones worth talking with because they will be the only ones who's opinions are relevant when theory actually has to come to practical application.

That said I did want to address a few things because god forbid this thread die or something....

[ QUOTE ]
Theres a right way to fight and theres the wrong way to fight.


[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not here. since the right way was a guy performing a solo form and and the wrong way was three separate fighters being done in by some kyokushin boys who went very easy on their opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
MADrox: but i dont see a UFC style of fighting being very effective against a group scene.
if you're in a bar or street fight,, most guys will have their boys with them..
and similar to a fight at a recent bowling alley, a guy had another in a choke hold,, and then someone came stabbed the guy doing the hold ..


[/ QUOTE ]

A single fighter in a group fight is at a disadvantage. No one training live would look to take one guy out of a number to the ground; they would probably be looking for an exit or the opportunity to create one. UFC "style" isn't deadlocked the way people think it is or want it to be. A stand up striker would be just as bad off as a someone with a knowledge of ground work against a group of people. Just like the disadvantage is equal when faced with someone with a gun.


[ QUOTE ]
SRIDER: I remember once some one told me that training in grappling would help me with self defence.

I just wondered, what good is someone wrapping their legs around me exposing their nuts for me to crack.

Maybe I lose the fight, but I'd get to keep my balls.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that was what grappling was about you might have a point. To be less than flippant, what you see under controlled situations and rule sets isn't what a particular fighting is but what its been distilled to at that moment. Grappling can help someone who wants to be able to defend themselves by creating body awareness, strength, flexibility, knowledge of how the body moves/works and how you can use that to your advantage. Skilled and unskilled fighters alike often end up in the dirt, if it came to that I would be glad to know how to get back up without the aid of paramedics.

[ QUOTE ]
DISSMASTER: Grappling knowledge might have practical applications in a prison setting. If you knew all those Gracey moves you might be able to protect your butt-chastity from being spoiled.

But in the real world, it wouldn't matter.

If you get jacked on the street, what are you going to do? Are you going to say, "Sir, I demand that you put down that gun so that we can settle this with a civilized man-tussle. Just give me a moment to change into my singlet."


[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, the real world. thankfully it applies to everyone and not just those who "wrassle". Those Shaolin guys I see touring the world and performing outside of malls? In your "real world" example they fall like second cut hay in mid-summer.

[ QUOTE ]
DISSMASTER By now we've established that Ultimate Man Tussling is neither sport nor art nor useful form of self defense. Just because there is a ref who keeps the Tusslers from biting, fishhooking, or employing the rusty trombone technique does not make it a sport.

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you've done neither of those things but we'll let that pass for a second. What does make a sport a sport. Why is Wrestling in high school/university/olympics a sport? Why is speed walking? Why is eating?

As for self defense, if your argument is still predicated in your "real world" analogy then please tell me the effective counter for a gun. Another gun? what about a gun pressed into the small of your back or temple. Unless the real world is rooted in the movie Equilibrium I think the guy who draws first (assuming decent aim) is the winner and we're back to second cut hay again.

You obivously don't like UFC styled fighting since you go out of your way to deride it. Thankfully, your disdain doesn't remove its relevance. Ground work has been a part of well rounded martial arts for a looong time. I practice a form of stand up known as Chito-Ryu Karate and part of the black belt examination is ground work. its been a standard part of this form of Karate since before it came to Canada in the 50's. BJJ has a lot of offer in terms of submission science, ending a fight without necessarily ending a life. Let those with ears hear.

[ QUOTE ]
DISSMASTER These are hard questions with hard answers, but I think that once we understand the bizarre appeal of Ultimate Man Tussling, we will be one step closer to understanding the decline of Western Civilization in general.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fighting and organized fighting has been around for longer than you realize obviously. and oddly enough, not just in the west. Interesting that people fighting is more to blame for a civilizations decline than is--for example--the stagnation of relevance in a person's life that they watch others play sports, they dream about being famous (not for accomplishing something mind you), they dream instead of do and generally just live under the darkness and ruin of an inauthentic life. I think there are other bruises on this apple to attend to before you get to your sore spot on fighting.

[ QUOTE ]
PHOENIXDTH: dont know how many times i gotta mention this guy, but if MAS OYAMA, entered UFC, id be bored to shit. If Mas Oyama punched you, he broke your ribs, if you tried to block that punch, he broke your arms. He could chop bullhorns with his barehands, his fists had that much destructive power. Throw him in UFC and matches will last under a minute guarenteed.


[/ QUOTE ]

Rule based fighting is around for more than just happy television sponsors and the viewing hordes. Since death or crippling isn't a goal of the forum or the fighters you put in place rules preventing both. That doesn't mean training is only centered around what works inside of artificial rule sets. fighting forums are just convenient expressions of what you've learned over time without having it end with widows and pallbearers. I agree that certain tools being banned lend weight to a style that has work arounds and not the other but I'd rather see a fight with rules than not. For the fighter at a disadvantage because certain techniques are verbotten? learn the others that you can use, master them and let them help you win. Or don't fight under those rules. Fight in the streets where you can pull out eyes or kick someones head until it sags like an old pumkin. The world is open for anyone with a vision.

Mas is an interesting fellow. He introduced the idea of the 100 man Kumite and was suprised that most didn't have his will or determination. To date only a handful of people have accomplished the Hyaku Nin Kumite while Sosai Oyama himself performed three in as many days. Sosai Oyama is a snowflake, there aren't two of him. Too bad, his spirit is badly missed in the current world of "touch" martial arts and fantasy fighting.

GE

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

GE, you've got way too much time on your hands. Seriously. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

Holy SHit GE...
On organized fighting...it has been around before human beings walked on two legs instead of 4 limbs.
The biggest thing that gets shattered when you start to train full contact is your ego. All of a sudden techniques which you thought would end a match immediatly do not work as well, a punch slips, or simply is not as powerful. What MMA does is with the highest level of saftey, let people experiment with actual fighting.

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

[ QUOTE ]
they dream instead of do and generally just live under the darkness and ruin of an inauthentic life.

[/ QUOTE ]

GE, I'm scared of you.

inauthentic life

ouch.

 

Riposte *DELETED*

Post deleted by DissMaster

 

Re: Riposte

Speed walking is in the olympics. That's as far as I think I'll read your post. I've written what I wanted and you seem a very unskilled partner for debate.

end of line

GE

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

Whoa, what kind of discussion are you having? Both of you should know the limitations of their point of view, seriously.
Like GE said, you wanna see people die in the ring?

In the 1910s, in China's first national martial arts tournament, competition got so fierce more that more than 20 contestants had to be disqualified for the risk of killing some of the great masters of their time.

Surely was a sight to behold but also incredibly wasteful. You wanna go back to a time were sword-tournaments ended with the last survivor? I don't, I love my life /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

But GodEater, thinking that a Shaolin Monk wouldn't stand up in real life situations is a joke. Why do you think that when a single punch can floor anyone? Do you think stuff like one inch punches are the stuff of myth? Then go out and search for the people who can do. They are there.

What has to be understood is that martial arts are self defense. And in that situation, there is no reason to be a sportsman. /versus/images/graemlins/deadpan.gif

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

A good written article on the development from this first tournament to nowadays. Also has interesting insights into MMA. Enjoy /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif
http://www.geocities.com/ottawakungfu/052Overview1Hist02H.htm

 

Rare prime rib

[ QUOTE ]
DissMaster said (Re: GE):

Oh brother. Let's deflate this gasbag, shall we?



[/ QUOTE ]


Geez. I find GE to be eloquent and aware. I don't understand why you're attacking him. I didn't read that he assigned you to his category three. I read he commented on your real world argument. To me, "real world" stuff is almost always bigger fist or bigger gun wins. I'm OK with non-real-world fighting on TV. I don't care that someone could just shoot Ken Shamrock.

So you say you don't like UFC-style fighting - I don't see why you have to ridicule the shit out of it. I don't watch it much myself, and I did see what I think was the first or second (or both) tournament(s) on tape. I was floored. Maybe it had some injected drama, but maybe not. I remember clearly the pre-fight promo on what these practicioners called "street ninja" style fighting - it showed two guys sparring, using really complex, scripted-looking moves and wearing urban chamoflauge. Fast-forward to the fight - street ninja man gets ready, his opponent runs at him, jumps in the air, wraps his legs around him so he can't move his arms, and punches him in the face until he falls on his back and the fight is called. It lasted, maybe, 6 seconds. Street Ninja has this WTF look on his bloodied face. It was wild. I want to see it again. Another fight on that tape - French Savate vs. Sumo guy - I could see the thinking going on - "hey, that guy's head is down low near my foot - I can kick him in the face - I think I'll do it." I thought it was brilliant.

 

Re: Rare prime rib

The way I see it is so:

If you have a gun, you are going to win.

If you have a knife, there is a high chance you will win.

If you know Martial Arts and the other guy doesn't, you will probably win.

Knowing Martial Arts can only help you in a situation. All these fighting tounaments help to train people how to fight and how to defend themselves, so no matter how many rules there are, it can only help you on the street.
As for the pointless arguing about which style can beat which, simply look at the fights between those two styles and it will become apparent, and if it doesn't, then we obviously conclude that both Arts are equally strong in relative terms, and it will come down to which particular two people were fighting.

If we are talking about two Arts that will never compete against each other, there is never going to be a way of finding out which Art is stronger, so stop arguing about it. No one is going to suddenly say "you know, I see your point now, I think your right. Based on your descriptions on how a fight would go (and also the size of your e-penis), I concede this arguement and am now converted to your way of thinking".
This would be the same as someone trying to convince a dedicated VF player that Tekken is better (or vice-versa); it would never happen.

Oh, and I think I already mentioned that Bruce Lee would motherfucking pwn every motherfucking motherfucker out there!

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

Well, that's soooo untrue. I've played Tekken since one but got convinced with VF4 that it's the deeper game. I simply won't argue that anymore.

That doesn't make Tekken a bad game, though.

Which leads us to the point, everyone wants to do "the best" style. And also be "the best". I settled for one but ignore number two since even trying that would make me nuts. Since my own master is sometimes not fully content with his skill compared to our grandmaster ^^

Of course it seems noone will listen since I've been pretty much ignored by people shouting at each other so far... or not? /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

Beat Me Silly!

Fuck Off Plague...

Just kidding, dude. You're a nicer more peacemaking kind of dude than me on this site. I prefer to stir the shit as they say..

I took GE's post to be a slight aimed in my direction, though maybe it's possible that it was not intended that way. I've reread his post where he talks about people watching instead of doing, and of course the bruised apple metaphor and it still seems rather pointed. But maybe it was just his opinion injected into some comments on my post. I stand by less than positive assessment of his prose.

This could have just been the cumulative effect of various shit. I have long found him annoying (Does it show?) but whatever. Today I was feeling especially DissMasterish.

And anyway, I don't hate the ultimate fighting. I have even found them entertaining, in a Jackass-minus-the-irony kind of way. That said, I am greatly annoyed when I hear dudes talking about UFC like it's this great art form that makes all other martial artists look like pussies.

I'm tired of typing, but here's an article that deals with hyper macho, sadistic violence and its fascist antecedents..

Anyway, read the article if you want to be able to laugh at the tough, manly, ass-kicking dudes out there. /versus/images/graemlins/deadpan.gif

 

Re: Beat Me Silly!

actually i had been to the shaolin temple... why those monks live so freaking high on top of the mountain? why those monks smoke marlboro? why those monks learn those killing moves while their principle is to be peaceful?

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

[ QUOTE ]
VirtuaFox said:

Well, that's soooo untrue. I've played Tekken since one but got convinced with VF4 that it's the deeper game.

[/ QUOTE ]

You misunderstand. You were obviously convinced by playing VF that it was a better game, my point was that no amount of someone telling you it is a better game is going to convince you, just as one person telling the other that one Art is better than another isn't going to convince them.
It works with anything. If you have based your own opinion on experience and knowledge you have gathered, then you are not going to be pursuaded to change that opinion by someone else telling you to, you would have to experience something, or witness something to change your views.
Look at it another way, if you think that Brazil have the best soccer team, no amount of me saying 'No, Argentina have the best soccer team' is going to make you believe it.....

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

"it's true, our kung fu is useless against foreign guns" - Master Yim, said while dying from multiple gunshot wounds.

 

Re: Beat Me Silly!

I'm back. Mostly because I read your reply to Plague and thought I'd read your follow up to me as reference. I have no problem with the personal attacks you always pepper your posts with but I don't understand how you can be so opinionated but deny others the right.

By the way, attack my writing all you want. It doesn't slow me down or cause me pain, nor does it invalidate the things I seem to communicate to others. My innatention to grammatical rules followed me all the way into University where I graduated with honors.

I think you mis-read my post if you thought I was attacking you. I used your quotes because I was responding to what you wrote (the situations) but not you yourself. you, on the other hand, seem hell bent on getting your personal licks in by saying that fighters and their kind are low in education or have an inferiority complex and are responsible for all of earth's latest ills. Dick wagging, I believe you called it. Ironic or not, you do that throughout all of your posts.

First. I think the state of society is in disrepair. I don't think fighting is the cause of that. I think people being tourists in their own lives is. Not having anything bigger in your life than yourself (I don't care what it is: God, family, community...pick one and devote yourself to it) is a huge problem. Couple that with a total lack of responsibility, no will to address problems without alcohol, perscription drugs, and a culture of "no fear" and you have one hell of a fast ride to the bottom. Fighting has been around for a long time, I would rather it occur in training halls with science around it and rules to protect all involved than on the streets.

Near egoless bouts can occur with the only real thought being getting better at whatever it is you are currently practicing in. I do stand up martial arts(and it is hillarious, by the way) and want to be as good as my potential allows. I think, and my school agrees, that ground fighting is a part of any complete training program. If you end up the ground you need the tools to deal with it. I think BJJ, Judo, Aikido and a whole host of other practical arts need to be learned.

Really, that was the Bruce Lee's point: Use what works, discard what doesn't. First to go for him was forms which I still really enjoy and think serve a practical purpose of archiving a martial arts "move set" and ideas. It may no longer be as important as it once was in terms of teaching in quiet (as with Tai Chi) or during the period when nothing was written down but passed on by master to master but I'm a big believer in it so I do it. To each his own. And that maxim is really why I got involved in this thread in the first place.

You dislike people holding up UFC as some “art†higher than any other (I don’t recall anyone doing that in this thread so this may have been something you brought with you) and I dislike anyone people pissing on a school of thought for inaccurate reasons. You, among others, chimed in with reasons why people who engaged in ground based martial arts were wasting their time if they wanted to defend themselves from attack (guns and group situations), were stupid or devolved (“meatheadsâ€Â, “goonsâ€Â, “I’d wager that if we did some research, we would find among the general population an inverse correlation between level of education and level of interest in Man-Tusslingâ€Â) or compensating for some other lack. Generalities abound but aren’t very useful as they are both proven and disproven in actual experience. There’s something to be said about hate mongers and shit stirrers and people who feel the need to reduce things they don’t like to sterotype I’m sure but you won’t find it wholly accurate across the board.

I am 35, 6 foot, 185 pounds, could never dunk a basketball (can barely dribble), have been involved in martial arts since I was about 15 and have been in exactly two fights outside of my dojo, both in middle school. I like fighting in controlled situations for the same reason I liked fencing and debate in high school and chess in University; I like friendly competition and people who are interested in getting better at something. I stay away from the hyper competitive whose only regard is for themselves and to “beat†someone.

I really dig people who involve themselves in their own lives and the lives of those around them for positive effect. I tend to stay away from needlessly negative people, racists, and anyone I deem to be “meanâ€Â. It’s a waste of time and life. At the same time I think that there’s a point where talking doesn’t get anything done and you have to walk away. Plague and I disagree on this point, he’d rather always be there and try and help. I shrug and move on.

By the way, you attend to bruises on an apple by cutting them out.

GE

 

Re: Meatheads of the World Unite!

Well, Ev2, one thing is only partially correct: I never played VF4 enough to actually endulge in it's full depths. But I understood the implications those mechanics had on complexity, gameflow and so on. And as an intelligent being, I accepted what I understood.

I don't have to have extensive practice in a martial art to understand the the strong points and it's limitation. I have enough experience under my belt to do that. "Show me your training methods and I tell you how good you'll get."

Simple example? Practicing a static power vs power, practicing a chisao, practicing a tuishou. I say "a" because there are many ways to do this, as well as many names that have been given.
With the first you'll mostly develop power and that's it. With the second you learn to intelligently react to a touch. With the third you keep it in perpetual motion. In the end it gives you motion advantage since you can seek advantages in a way the first will never show you.

So like the VF thing, it's a thing of concepts. You can use strength but one should also learn how to use it intelligently. And that's what's sorely missing in a lot of martial arts, MMA or traditional, to boot. If you understand that, it's a good start /versus/images/graemlins/deadpan.gif