Samurai Spirit, who plays this game???

In 6 it is better than 5, but not as good as 4. Fierce version comes out really quick but has very small range, almost like a poke.

www.guardcrush.net has some strats...

 

lol im going to be greedy and ask for everyones cancel chart. I just mainly need to know it for defensive purposes mostly. Dont want to get baited by a stupid cancel.

I've been talking with patrick a lot lately, SS4 is some crazy stuff, i need to practice my CD fair canceling.

 

lol, I've been playing SS since the first one- started w/ Ukyo, but have happily been Genjuro's b#### since 3. Unfortunately, a SNK cabinet does not exist where I'm at, so I' m reduced to NeoRage and such /versus/images/graemlins/tear.gif

 

But, but, SS5special is the most balanced Samsho ever! SS4 is garbage Not really since I dont play that game often so I couldnt know. But what's so good about SS4 I want to ask Dandy J? A couple move cancels and cool combo are not going make people think it's good. I must be missing something about SS4 for many many years...

 

Okay, basic cancels in SS4:

1) Normal attack > 6AB(dodge to opp's back in close range):

2D > 6AB
B > 6AB
A > 6AB
CD > 6AB
6D > 6AB

66A > 6AB (ex: Jubei, Gaira, Sogetsu, etc)
66B > 6AB (ex: Gal, Hanzo, Kyoshiro, Kazuki, etc)
66C > 6AB (ex: Amakusa, Jubei, Genjuro, Basara, etc)
66D > 6AB (ex: Shizumaru, Kyoshiro, Genjuro, etc)
down attack > 6AB (ex: Shizumaru, Ukyo, etc)
pounce > 6AB (ex: Shizumaru, Amakusa, etc)
close C > 6AB (ex: Basara, Haohmaru, rimururu, etc)

2) Special cancel:
(I have no idea what are they really talking about so I will just translate them word by word in some sentense.)

Special cancel here includes: Projectile cancel, Dragon punch cancel. ABC combo slash cancel, AB dodge cancel, 2146D deflection cancel, Super move cancel, and some other specific moves cancel.

Basically the forementioned normal attack cancels is just one kind of special cancel, except it counts as normal move cancels normal move. And most of special cancel means special moves cancel normal moves.

C > special move cancel (including: C > projecile cancel; C > dragon punch cancel; C > other special move cancel; C > ABC combo slash cancel, C > AB dodge; C > 2146D deflection cancel; C > super move cancel etc)

Far 2C > special move cancel (ex: Genjuro, Sogetsu, Gal, Tamtam, Kyoshiro etc)
B > special move cancel (ex: Haohmaru's far 5B > 236slash; Sogetsu's 5B > 236slash; jubei's B > 236slash, Ukyo's B > 214 slash/ 214D etc)

66A > special move cancel (ex: Nako, Gal, Hanzo, Ukyo etc)

66B > special move cancel (ex: Gal, Hanzo, Jubei, Genjuro etc)
66C > speical move cancel (ex: Basara, Haohmaru, Ukyo, Jubei etc)

And being deflected(2146D) by opp. you can only ABC rage explosion cancel.





There are much more, but I have to go now, the link is here:

http://www.lastsky.net/club/viewthread.php?tid=126144&fpage=1


I probably translated some portion wrong in a hurry. Anyone could point me out will be appreciated. It's time to play SStenka now...

 

Well, SS4 execution of moves are a lot harder depending on the character you use. As im finding out Kazuki is character based mostly around fair cancels. The game is much faster paced because of the pressure it creates. Being at the wall, is like being at the wall in VF or edge of the ring. Rage explosion is also a more useful tool compared to SS5sp, since the threat of both issen and custom combo are there. Also having the option to change what you do after throw is great too.

While SS5sp is a great game, the risk element is fairly reduced, while nearly nonexistant in SS tenka. I guess this allows people to play better within their comfort zone, but at times gets boring to me. While I definately cant say SS4 is more balanced than SS5, SS4 definately forces me to use yomi in more situations.

I guess i can say about SS4, is that everyone is equally broken and anyone can win the match at any given time. SS4 is probably the first game i played, where i never felt completely comfortable leading a round. As it should be with weapons fighters. I still like to play SS5sp and tenka though /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
PhoenixDth said:

Well, SS4 execution of moves are a lot harder depending on the character you use. As im finding out Kazuki is character based mostly around fair cancels. The game is much faster paced because of the pressure it creates. Being at the wall, is like being at the wall in VF or edge of the ring. Rage explosion is also a more useful tool compared to SS5sp, since the threat of both issen and custom combo are there. Also having the option to change what you do after throw is great too.

While SS5sp is a great game, the risk element is fairly reduced, while nearly nonexistant in SS tenka. I guess this allows people to play better within their comfort zone, but at times gets boring to me. While I definately cant say SS4 is more balanced than SS5, SS4 definately forces me to use yomi in more situations.

I guess i can say about SS4, is that everyone is equally broken and anyone can win the match at any given time. SS4 is probably the first game i played, where i never felt completely comfortable leading a round. As it should be with weapons fighters. I still like to play SS5sp and tenka though /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Good reply, it brings out almost all questions I want to ask about in many years.


1) Is strict timing for cancel moves good or bad? I mean strict timing in combo is just finer trainning. It's not like after you get use to the strict timing comboes you are going to be smarter than others or have more dexterity in responding to attacks which helps you play better in fighting game in general. So is it going to the reason that makes SS4 better than other SS series?

2) If pressure in the wall is good, why not pressure from different distance? You dont want to see people always fight in the corner huh? Okay, I do think it's cool but that's not the point of samsho, right?

3) Rage explosion in SS4 is like State of Nothingness in SS5 from you are describing: Both offer custom combo and issen, both gives opp pressure a lot, while RE is nuts after a throw, SoN is stupid if it caught people in the air. While SoN is being highly criticized by most ppl, including me, I dont see RE in SS4 that much better from SoN. So I will need a better explaination about the greatness of rage explosion is SS4.

3) Speed wise, SS3 can end the game easily in a few seconds because damage in that game is simply huge. So far I think SStenka is faster than SS3, SS4, and SS5 even though the damage in that game is much smaller than others.

4) About Yominess I dont know how to talk about it because it exist in every fighting game. One must be more yomi than others to win or both cant even get an attack through.


Base on my observation, SS4 is just some veterans' preference because they mastered strict timing combo/cancel BS then they couldnt do that to new comers in SS5, SStenka anymore. And they are too lazy or have no time to learn the new things, it's not like they have that much time to spend these day since most of them got jobs, and families. So they stuck at SS4 sentiment...

 

"Base on my observation, SS4 is just some veterans' preference because they mastered strict timing combo/cancel BS then they couldnt do that to new comers in SS5, SStenka anymore. And they are too lazy or have no time to learn the new things, it's not like they have that much time to spend these day since most of them got jobs, and families. So they stuck at SS4 sentiment...
"

very nice analisys, i bet thats whats hapenning..

 

1) i wouldnt say move canceling would make SS 4 better, but it does add a depth in creating option select situations. Because there is a lack of this in SS5 and tenka, the variety of styles of play seem limited. It really limits everyone to play certain characters in a certain way.

2. ) The wall pressure im talking about in SS4 is the ability to change the situation of the battle at any given time. Think of it as a High ground Low ground situation while the center of the battlefield is even ground. Because of this, people tend to force themselves out of wall situations at any given round using rage. Speaking of fighting at the wall all day, Mina and Kusaregedo fighters sit there wall day without fear.

3.)Speaking about rage. The problem i have with state of nothingness is that you can only use it in your final defeat round. With rage combined with issen, the threat appears at any given round. Rage is also a great option select tool in SS4.

4.)SStenka to me does not feel that fast at all or basically i never truly feel like im in danger. Every thing feels very safe and systematic. Its not a bad thing, but just how comfortable you are with playing the game. I think its because SS4 discourages machi play greatly, while SStenka balances it out.

5.)About yominess. Of course yomi applies to every game, but in SS4 the payout is greater for the correct yomi with abare. This in a sense is like SS3, where the battle isnt over till its over, without the C slash spam, but skill instead.


Well in a nutshell i played SS2 jumped to 5 and Tenka. I enjoyed those greatly and always regarded 3 and 4 as crap. I've just started playing 4 recently and found out that its a really fun game because of all the option select yomi situations. With SS5sp and SS6 i feel that anyone can read a strat guide and get decent at the game. Once again i dont hate SS5sp and SS6, but once im starting to understand SS4 better, its quite a different breed of fighting game than anything else i played in 2D. Like you said, its not really samsho, but i think its still a quality game.

 

PhoenixDth, from the way you describe Mina sitting in corner in SS5, now I am wondering. And here are my two impressions:

1) you or your friend is a mina master, who never let opp get close to her in the corner. So you think Mina could sit well in the corner with ease.

2) you or your friend fights very well whenever Mina is trapped in the corner, but the others just dont know how to beat her effectively.

From all the Mina vids I saw and every Mina I destroyed, I noticed the good ones dont sit in the corner because Mina really suck in corner battle. The risk/reward game isnt on her side because of her "paper defense," and her anti air move's effectiveness reduced tremedously in the corner. Therefore the good Mina players often fight at close distance well and abuse Mina's firepower whenever the distance is far. Trapping in the corner is Mina's nightmare. Any mistake could be 50% plus of her lifebar. Mina actually has quite plenty option selects in SS5(sp) but many people dont explore them(me too) because they are too lazy and abusing those "get away with murder moves." Against better opponent, they wont make the cut. Just like in VF...


If you use RE in the first round, how do you win the second and third round? It's like you are in serious disadvantage with no Max gauge(less damage, no enhanced moves, no super) and no RE. If you messed up in the first round after RE, the situation is even worse... It sounds very desperate to me.

Tenka has faster move execution, lower jumps than other samsho, faster tempo. But the damage is... Actually I think such gameplay rewards pros. Because it's not like a beginner can win easily with random one or two strong slash anymore. Now, if you keep making mistakes with huge life gauge lead in SStenka, you can still lose. But yeah, in a pro vs pro situation, the chance of winning with 50% life gauge behind is much lower. Just like chess, it's not impossible, it's hard. Treat SStenka like a long, somewhat boring chess game, while others like rock paper scissor...

 

I think what Alex likes about SS4 is really the pace. SS5sp is a slower game and from what videos I've watched SS6 is even slower. SS4 is a frantic game. Players are rewarded for taking big risks, and using both normals and specials as keep away moves while concentrating on hit and run tactics.

I've joined Alex a few times online (when I can get my %#$#^$ ping fixed) and played some obviously very experienced players. They are quite skilled in both combo execution and keeping themselves safe with a variety of moves that allow them to distance themselves from the opponent safely. Because throws also allow you to connect good combos (if the opponent is skilled enough), playing machi is dangerous. Getting your opponent in the corner allows for some very damaging setups that can take half life (depending on the character), which is why the rage explosion is so valuable as a 'get out of jail free card'.

The fact that Rage can only be used once is a blessing in disguise, it gives you many options that can blow through the opponent's moves... issen from rage in SS4 can easily take half of the opponent's life, there are many setups (including throw into issen!!) that will overwhelm the opponent if done effectively. Alex mentioned, and I witnessed, that it's all about winning the round in SS4, and raging when you're about to die and connecting an issen can turn the tide of a match quickly.

I felt, while playing SS4, that the speed of the game really adds a lot to the excitement. But even playing some of these really good guys (and even while they were 'messing around' ie. not playing seriously), I was able to use general, simple mixups (high/low, jumping attack vs low attack mixups, dash in and throw, a few fireball traps.) to win a bit.

Which means that you don't have to be a combo guru and memorize lots of crap to win, although it'll give you a substantial edge in the fight. I know no combos off of throw, and did the simplest stuff possible, but I never felt completely overwhelmed by my opponent, even with his well executed (and obviously meticulously practiced) defensive patterns.

SS5sp for me is really fun because of the D movement. Dodging in SS4 is useful, and can be canceled into for infinites, but the defensive rolling forward into mixup in SS5sp is really interesting to me personally. I've only played SS6 at the loke test, so I have little experience with it... I guess I'll have to try it more before I make any decisions about it. But I'm wondering how safe SS6 is really... and how many comebacks do you see in tournaments? In SS4 you certainly see a lot of matches that are going in favor of one guy, and then the other guy turns the tide with a few well placed/lucky strikes... Is that element non-existant in 6? I wonder...

 

from videos im seeing mina players always start to back up at the start of the round. This in because she has many tools to pull herself out of a corner. 623 slash. Wall jump etc. Lets say mina players dont exactly goto the wall, but maybe 85% towards the wall, but in wall jump range if they need it. This is where SS4 throws kick in. In SS4 you never want to be more than 75% towards the wall, good players will always find a way to set you up into it. So the game feels like its always pushing you forward . Kind of like the world heroes electric and spiked rings and tactically speaking high ground low ground.

About rage. Since you are thinking in SS5 terms rage must feel like a defensive tool. In 4 rage is also potentally your best offensive weapon. That is why in SS4 winning each round is important. Lets say you saved your rage and lost round 1. Round 2 you and your opponent are at 50% life, and your opponent rages first. The rage already puts the threat that the other player wants to end the game early and one Issen combo you are dead. In this way, he might force you to burn your rage needlessly to avoid eating issen. Where round 3 becomes a battle which both players lack rage. Or you can say you burned rage first and you're at a serious disadvantage, by not having it the next rounds. But lets say you used it properly and won the first round giving you an one round advantage. This forces Player 2 to risk rage in 2nd round and not have the option is there is even a 3rd round at all, or save it for a 3rd round where he might potentially die in round 2. If you messed up your rage chance in round 1, then keep practicing.

I think you like SS5 movment because hanzos backdash sucks /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif. Well honestly i like it too, but i miss having the classic A+B dodge sometimes. D doesnt always cut it =/

Yes, SStenka damage is really nerfed on most characters(tamtam). I wouldnt say this game rewards pros, but caters to new players. The lack of real damage makes it really not feel like SS for me. Sure a lot of moves execute faster, but recovery on almost every move is worse. In the end the game becomes nothing but a bunch of cancel nitakus where Iroha players thrive.

 

[ QUOTE ]

I think you like SS5 movment because hanzos backdash sucks /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif. Well honestly i like it too, but i miss having the classic A+B dodge sometimes. D doesnt always cut it =/


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that AB dodge is nice. And everyone says hanzo's backdash sucks... but I ALWAYS try to cancel it into either fireball or teleport. So I actually like it a lot, the fireball is really useful as anti air as well. So if someone is jumping in and I time a good backdash into fireball, they always will eat the fireball. It's less purely defensive though...

 

SS4 encourage big risk? that sounds more like a gamble to me. You want to play big gamble, SS3 is made for you(and me). It's just a personal preference still.


And now I will want to ask one question that will make you believe SStenka's damage reduction totally rewards pros:

Let's say you are playing against a top VF player who is more experienced than you in a 2000 life point rather than 200 life point per round, do you think your chance to win a round is higher or lesser?

Let's put it the opposite way: if it's just 1 life point per round, is your chance to win a round from the better player higher or lesser?

Now think...

 

Anyway, I will play Samsho Tenka at W2Z next Tuesday from 4 to 8. Anyone who interested in this game please come!

 

i mentioned earlier SS4 rewards abare without C button smashing(which is SS3).

I dont know how you define a pro tenka player. The game seems to limit itself on basic SS cancel nitaku, weak throws that beat more moves. In my opinion.


Lets see who is S class in Tenka

Ranged attack grouping
-----------------------------------
Mina
Amakusa
-----------------------------------

Best cancel grouping
-----------------------------------
Iroha
Shizumaru
-----------------------------------

I dont know if looking at that list bothers you, but it really bothers me, considering the styles of play those 4 encourages. Also seeing kusaragedo at bottom tier makes me sad now. He was really a testamant in balancing big characters. Maybe you can explain to me what makes a pro tenka player better than a SS4 or SS5sp pro player.

I'll just post this list here as reference

SS Tenka

S Class:
Mina
Shizumaru
Amakusa
Iroha

A Class
Kazuki
Sougetsu
Cham Cham
umm...spear guy
Zan-something-ro
Haohmaru
Ukyo
Galford
Mizuki

B Class
Hanzo
Yumeji
Rasetsumaru
Enja
Genan
Rera
Sieger

C Class:
Suija
Nicotine
Sankuro
Basara
Andrew
ocha-something
Gaira

D-Class:
Rimururu
?souroku? (guy with the big tub)
Jubei
Yunfei
Tam Tam
Kyoushiro
Charlotte

E Class:
Genjuro
Yoshitora
Wang Fu
Kusaregedou
Earthquake
Nakoruru

 

SS3 rewards C button mashers??? Maybe that's me but dont you have that AB dodge beat almost every thing except throw? Never mine about SS3, it's a flawed game for sure, at least amakusa's crouch kick in that game is like 2 second 8 kicks then you fainted. I afraid D button mashers more... (I remember it's fixed in console version.)


Low tiers are... of course are low tiers for a reason. But that's a lame excuse for people dislike the game or not playing certain characters:

<a href="http://www.trf2.com/ss/051002samuraiJEOkainuma.zip" target="_blank">http://www.trf2.com/ss/051002samuraiJEOkainuma.zip</a>

<a href="ttp://www.trf2.com/ss/051002samuraiJEOtomono.zip" target="_blank">ttp://www.trf2.com/ss/051002samuraiJEOtomono.zip</a>

The top 4 SStenka characters are good at both close and long range battle, because the real damage all comes from close range combo for sure. They do get some easy wins against Gedo/Earthquake noobs as they are impatient or lacks experience against long range attacks, but that's it.



"what makes a pro tenka player better than a SS4 or SS5sp pro player?"

Nothing! a pro tenka player doesnt mean they will be better than SS4/SS5sp pro players. But they dont lose easily to players are not at their level in samsho tenka, that all I can tell. No more random one strong slash or one throw to get away with murder. Bad for noobs...


Now go back to the first question: what made SS4 better than other Samsho games?

 

damn, busy tomorrow and midterm on Wednesday, sorry about that and no more SStenka gathering this Tuesday...

 

"Now go back to the first question: what made SS4 better than other Samsho games? "

Well as stated before, in general, its a much faster game with the ability to turn the match at any moment. While like you said tenka is a slower more methodical game. As for SS4, good players dont get caught by spam and throw for 3 rounds, there are ways around it.

so in the end this was kinda pointless because it was just a talk about personal preference =p