Shun help

hungover - its simple for moves to be useless, even in mixups. If you want to use +, its pointless, because everything it can do, + can do better (small example). If they are not expecting the +, then they also will not be expecting the +. There is just no point in using a move that is worse in every respect than another move.

If variety is your concern, make use of simple tools used well, not just doing random stuff, because an experienced player is not likely to be overwhelmed by a large variety of moves being used.

edit:
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Anyway, if being a better player does mean only using a limited number of perfect moves and a simple strategy, then I'd rather stay at my own level, wherein I can compete with others in an atmosphere I enjoy. Call me a fool, but I enjoy having a good time to being the best.

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then why are you in the training forum? You make it sound like there is a best option for every situation, and doing any other option is worse. VF is about the fact that if the opponent knows what you are going to do (the 'best' option), 95% of the time he will get guranteed damage if you do it. But things like using instead of chowan to try to interrupt something at an advantage just to 'mix it up' is not going to help.

 

>ice 9

touche /versus/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

have to brush up on my english

 

It's not nice to gang up on someone just because they are stepping out of bounds. They were sharing their Shun philosophy which I happen to agree with, more or less.

Let's see, let's see.
None of Shun's moves are the same (obviously) therefor they all have advantages and disadvantages over his others.
& +...
Damage: 30-42(maxDP) & 25-35(maxDP)
Range: Long, Norm.
Exe:24 & 17
Attk Recovery: about the same
Guarded: -15 & -6
Hit: DOWN & about equal, continue assault

Indeed + is better -- in close range battle. 's usefulness is that it is a quick (enough) long range MID attack. It should be used when your opp. goofs, or is tricked. An example whould be when you knock your opponent down, bait an attack MID or LOW, B-Dash and . It could also be used after a slow attack miss, such as after dodging, say Kage's .

Another attack which can be compared is which is but Wolf style, you are DOWN.

An example of something positively USELESS is this: After Gut Collapse using , instead of +you know. Less Damage, No +DP like , ...++. Nothing.
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For Shun technique, I suggest reading Documents such as the 2 here at VFDC. Also do all the Tactics advice, they are basic combos & strategy.

Some tips from my notes:
DPx16: OUS: The last 2 s become un-blockable in combo (+speed).
DPx25: The last 2 s become unblockable in combo.

+ is and attack which I personally abused in VF3tb. Try it out with or repeat it. Also good after .

+ or +:
For slow or Guarding opp.s: >Throw
For attackers: +COMBO or time a [Counter]+COMBO. Also try >+ for distance.

Also something stupid: After any BTurn attack even repeated buffer in +, HCF or HCB+ to use TEN or OUS in reverse.

Some of my terms:
> = Cancel with...
ZAB, TEN, CHO & OUS (that's my abbreviated Oushin {Laying Down})

 

I do admit that we (especially myself) got a bit carried away. However I don't want to give quick fixes to people. I have the mentality that if you're posting on this site, it means that you want to attain a certain level of proficiency. And, by that rational, I also have to step up when I think some information is a bit harmful to those who wish to get serious.

Now on a side note, how about I try to bring something constructive to the table? I’m just wondering what people found to be the most damaging follow-up to
+ ?

I use the same follow-up as with on counter:
,

Anything else with more "oomph"?

 

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Mankey said:
+ or +:
For slow or Guarding opp.s: >Throw
For attackers: +COMBO or time a [Counter]+COMBO. Also try >+ for distance.

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Looking at risk and reward, theres no real reason not to do chowan combos unless you are completely sure what the opponent will do, or you're fighting vanessa or aoi (who can avoid the chowan). Try these combos

0-8DP
jacky, akira, heavies: chowan, +, (down attack)
others: chowan, +, + (uppercut)

8-9DP
jacky, akira, heavies: chowan, +, (uppercut)
others: chowan, + (++)

10dp+
all: chowan, + (++)

 

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Cuz said:

Now on a side note, how about I try to bring something constructive to the table? I’m just wondering what people found to be the most damaging follow-up to
+ ?

I use the same follow-up as with on counter:
,

Anything else with more "oomph"?

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Alright, this urged me to do some Shun combo free testing for a couple hours. +, included of course!

I usually did (and sometimes Drank) after this attack. I don't get it off much so I pushed it aside.

"+": (Just to setup your memory)
-Has 3 Hits; H,M,M.
-I disect this move into 3 seperate ranges: Norm <font color="blue">(as in the starting default distance between fighters)</font>: 1 Hit. Alt1: 1 Hit and in range for combos (such as +) to follow. Close: 2 Hits.
(I know that is pretty stupid but they have meaning.)
-This attack is a "beatdown", your opponent CAN only Recovery Roll if you float them.
-[Counter] = No special Effect.

All Damage is with 8DP
+,..., 49(from 2 Hits from +)
<Heavy-W: Can Rec-Roll >
",...... 55(from 2 Hits)
<Heavy-W: Can Rec-Roll >
",...... >16DP
Any Can Rec-Roll
",+ may ++ to TEN 45(from 2 Hits)
", may ++ to TEN 53(from 2 Hits) >8DP *Yet again is proficient..
<Light-W: Time Delay this entire combo>
<font color="yellow">Alternatives</font>
",......Hold to CHO 39(from 2 Hits)
",+Hold to CHO 23 (from 2 Hits) *This one gives good distance
", to BT

... = Delay and time the button press

I also checked out Combos and Chouwan vs. crouching properties, but I'll save them for now.
(I love these buttons, it makes posting fun. That would be neat if we had a little Gourd button /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

 

From , at 8 drinks or more you can get , if you buffer forward dash after the , and from there slide the stick to before you enter the .

This is good because, it does NOT leave you in handstand position, and if the opponent techs sideways you can run in and land a which gives you the almighty backward stagger.

Yeah.

 

Interesting. This is good use of standing buffer. Superior to + "ozikeme". I'll add it to that list up there. But, I wonder what the full advantage of a "backwards stagger" is. It seems impossible to get it off vs. "Fast stagger recovery" in Free Training. Yes, I know humans are different.
Anyway, please tell me much more of your techniques so I can use them against you at Evo.
Just kidding, I'm not going.

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For gut collapses I just noticed that /CHO+ have faster Attk Recovery than + and , so you have to delay the slightly.
Also an interesting Gut Collapse/Crumble/Crumple/Kuzure/Kuzureru/whatever is + 36 that only works on Jeffry.

Nevermind there is a Edit time limit:
All Damage is with >8DP
+ (2 Hits), , ()> 45 + 22 from
<H-Weights: Can Rec-Roll at >
Also just ",... for H-W is not very effective.

 

Well, more than anything it means that you have the advantage in the mental game after they recover. If they do recover, you have the option to throw. If they do not, you can add attacks or just run in and do a quick back dash--chouwan. If you get the help of walls you can easily land and its variants.

Other stuff it seems some people do not know; after 5 drinks, if you do 4P in open stance (ha no ji...not 100% sure what it is in english), you get chouwan for free. Hot shit indeed.

If you mention more situations i can tell you what i might do...

 

No, no that's quite all right. I was trying to say (my grammar was bad there) that there seems to be no guaranteed combo off the backwards stagger. I thought maybe there was some Crouching-Dash-Cancel- or something to add to the series.

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Other stuff it seems some people do not know; after 5 drinks, if you do 4P in open stance (ha no ji...not 100% sure what it is in english), you get chouwan for free. Hot shit indeed.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "ha no ji", but that guaranteed chouwan is a sweet tid-bit. I've been meaning to print out the VFDC command list to check upgrades with more DP and review/edit the list thoroughly. (I need sleepy/crazed eyes smiley here)

 

Any advice for getting 2 perfects with Shun so I can get his glowing brace in mission practice?

 

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SiYkO said:

hungover - its simple for moves to be useless, even in mixups. If you want to use +, its pointless, because everything it can do, + can do better (small example). If they are not expecting the +, then they also will not be expecting the +. There is just no point in using a move that is worse in every respect than another move.


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For finishing the opponent? For the show? For the sake you can make it hit and still own your opponent? Reasons, baby. There can always be new reasons... /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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Melatto said:

Any advice for getting 2 perfects with Shun so I can get his glowing brace in mission practice?

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Ai advice? Whore with + like hell, run away and slit hits throat with and +. Those stupid AI:s never learn!

Crazy combo alert! Expert boys and girls, help me! Does this hit?_ wall + (hit, near wall) + . Dural sucked it like milky cowboy!

 

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Neonomide said:
Crazy combo alert! Expert boys and girls, help me! Does this hit?_ wall + (hit, near wall) + . Dural sucked it like milky cowboy!

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i haven't tested it out but i'm 99% sure thats not a real combo. if you turn TR/QR options on the opponent should be able to tech after the + part.

your best bet is to just stick to the trusty old ++, [ after any 21 pt damage attack causes wall stagger. you can also go for qcf+, then big pounce but i think that does slightly less damage and doesn't put you in as good a position for oki.

 

I don't doubt that its non TR'able. Mule kick into wall can give some sick combos. I would bet ++, , would connect at the right distance for some stupid damage

 

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SiYkO said:

I don't doubt that its non TR'able. Mule kick into wall can give some sick combos. I would bet ++, , would connect at the right distance for some stupid damage

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ok this is definitely a new one for me. how is this combo supposed to work. i was amazed when m_shun posted about it in the Ft shun thread (i thought it might have been an Ft exclusive combo) but hey if it works in evo as well could you tell me the specifics of the combo (who it works on, stance specific, proper range, which hits if any are supposed to miss or are all supposed to connect and amount of dps needed if any). thanks /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

they bounce into the wall at the peak of the mule kick launch. After that, it should all hit.

 

Yes. There has to be a bit of distance for this to work. I think it´s guaranteed. I got 95 + damage regardless of stance on 0 dp. Pretty wild.... /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif