So about that Super Street Fighter IV, eh?

No fucking shit.

 

Boy if you only Knew Tony. I won't even attempt to go into detail on this one but....That battle is how the casual gamer will look at a VF5 match.

 

This.

 

Go into detail about what? That is how you fight Zangief. Nothing complex about it.

 

If anyone is still interested in SSF videos even this close to the release... This channel has quite nice fights recorded by some Korean players in HD, with Japanese voices.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObKEILJJ33Q

For example - the one above. Do not blink!

 

I will note that it is interesting that the new 4 characters on have a great set of tools to work with, unlike their predecessors.

 

Umm... which 4 "new characters" we're talking?

There are 6 brand new chars added in SF4, and further 2 in SSF4.
10 characters are added to the cast in SSF4 total... So it's hard to follow your post here I guess

Also, "unlike their predecessors"... You mean, Ryu/Gouki/Sagat/Chun Li don't have a "great set of tools"? More like "awesome set of tools", I'd say!

 

They do. The same they have in most games. For new characters they really mesh with this games new systems. Lets see how well the 3S characters blend.

 

So this game is coming out in less than a month right? No delays that I've heard of yet.

April 26th is the day right? I swear I will train until my Abel is godly!

 

If a particular VF5 match is boring, then it's boring to anybody, casual or pro. Not all matches are going to be exciting to look at. Whether it's a casual or a vet gamer. THAT particular SF4 match was boring (personally I think it's due in part to how SF4 looks and feels) but I've watched plenty of SSF2 vids with Zangief versus projectile characters that were nowhere near as boring as that vid. Here's one:
<object width="560" height="340"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/naxQUr1gkeY"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/naxQUr1gkeY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="560" height="340"> </embed></object>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naxQUr1gkeY

And watching 3S vids with YSB's Hugo and Kuroda's Q (and Elena, Sean, Ibuki, Gouki, etc.) has jaded me. Those matches are so exciting and fun to watch that it makes me want to learn the game system (even though I can't play 2D games worth a damn). SSF2 and 3S are at the top of my list of greatest fighters of all time... but SF4... is sooo damn waaaaack.

I got my fingers crossed that Super SF4 will be better. I'm already liking a lot of the vids I'm seeing and I would hate to have to leave SF alone until they get back that magic they lost after 3S.

 

Nah if you already think 4 is wack, then I'm sure your not going to like Super. Fundamentally it will be the same, of course, with tweaks, features, and the addition of new characters.

 

Thats not really true. You have to know about a fighting game to understand and appreciate what is going on in a fighting game vid.

However even though I know that zoning and space control is very important in 2D-fighting games, that doesnt make me appreciate SF4 more. Those matches are still boring. I kind of understand why the big public likes games like that. They are tactically simple and concentrate on refining distancing and timing of couple things that you repeat over and over. Easy to understand, difficult to master. However not my kind of game.

 

After having played it recently, I'll say this post is completely accurate. Nothing's really changed. I do thoroughly enjoy most of the 'new' characters but the core game is still the SF4 we already know.

 

That's about as wrong as you can be about VF in my opinion as a spectator game. At Evolution the casual players always have had no idea what was going on with VF every year (same can be said for Tekken for the most part). When someone escaped a lot of throws throughout a round, or landed something like a stun palm, or did a very difficult stepping technique, the casual fans (or non-VF players) could barely keep their eyes open. The odds of seeing something immensely flashy in a VF match are pretty low which already alienates most spectators. You aren't going to see a huge parry sequence or a touch of death combos in VF which is what most everyone wants to watch.

In games like ST and 3S you have super flash when a super goes off, and the background lights up if a round ends with a super. In 3S you have a parry with a very distinct sound and animation, and you have EX moves which are visibly noticeable and easy for spectators to spot. There are no strong visual cues in VF for spectators to catch onto for pretty much everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP_XwcJPFXA&#t=1m15s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LCCVLWm4Ag&#t=2m15s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1UohYZkfNQ&#t=19s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R__CfOyYdYc&#t=8m35s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UbE7wNObqM&#t=1m14s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX0pTahrUSU&#t=1m59s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xhyCJqFaRU&#t=47s

The things that excite hardcore players are the little things in VF. ETEG, ECD, VIP, Minami Step, correctly evading all of your opponent's half circulars, reversing one of your opponent's attacks. And none of that stuff is indicated anywhere on the screen. In order to pick up on it during a match you must be familiar with VF already. In lots of Capcom games you get a message indicating 'throw tech' or 'reversal' or 'first attack' or an obvious flash of light to show that something has happened. You don't even need to spot a reversal, the game tells you that it happened. The game is cuing the player that something exciting is happening.

And no, I'm not advocating that VF become SF and tell the player everything, I hold VF #1 because it refuses to cater to casual fans with cues like 'reversal'.

When someone safe jumps, baits and punishes, conditions his opponent to block high and then attacks low, or does SGGK or jump tech, or something less obvious in SF, you rarely see the crowd react strongly. One year at EVO, Alex Valle was playing N.Ryu in ST, he knocked his opponent down, and while his opponent was waking up he threw out a standing jab before his opponent was fully standing. The appearance of the standing jab to the rising opponent conditioned him to mentally focus on blocking while standing, so then Alex threw out his okizeme attack which was low, and it successfully connected because Alex fooled his opponent into blocking high by faking him out with a high attack before his rising animation was fully complete.

Crowd reaction to that? Almost silence. Maybe a dozen of us actually picked up on it happening at the time. And those moments pretty much describe every sequence of a VF match at non-Japanese events. The crowd just doesn't have the ability and knowledge to recognize anything in VF. And in VF there are no obvious clues during a match to inform spectators that "something excited is happening and it's time to clap".

Do you really have to be an intermediate player at 3S or ST to know that a huge super is really exciting? When Kuroda, Daigo, and RX are stomping people with huge combos and moves and parrying literally every other attack it's overly obvious that it is a high point of a match.

VF doesn't really have a lot of spectator friendly mechanics in it in my opinion. It is a game that you absolutely must be at least mid-level in it to appreciate what is going on in a match. With ST and 3S, before I even had a clue about those games, I could sense the excitement when a super attack went off. I didn't appreciate VF, or really even understand it, until VF4:EVO came out and I learned the system fully through the massive tutorial mode.

 

I concur with this post. Most VF5R vids that you all post bore the crap out of me to be honest. I guess that's why I like watching SHU vids since he forces some flash/style. I can't be entertained by "wow I think he's been doing ABCDEFG"

 

Yes you do.

Why on earth is a huge super really exciting? I cant think of a single logical reason. Its just a single input. Yay. If Daigo does it on reaction to some opponent move and kills it with the invul frames, or combos into it via a long justframe combo, now THAT is more like it. Supers themselves are stupid in 2D games imo. Nothing but flash for the braindead.

Do you REALLY consider all those 1000000 happy-go-lucky wake-up ultras exciting in SF4? REALLY?

ps. I said what I said more in regards of VF though. The big crowd seems to need Big flashy neon signs and long cutscenes in order to understand what is going on.

 

The risk, invincibility frames, and overall damage which kinda give you an amazing tool to fight someone with that you seldomly have a chance to use and your opponent might not be aware of.

 

VF5R must've had enough flash to get non and ex VFers interested in the game... I mean granted, some just came for the petition, but I know a few people who became interested after watching a few matches, especially after seeing how the combos have changed dramatically...

Yeah there are a gangload of boring VF matches posted up here, but for those that posted them it must have had just enough flash for someone to post it... Some people got hype off of the combos, or plethora of throw escapes in 1 round or the whole match... Either way, you can't truly say that there's no flash in vf anymore... Granted, the blue flash from Wolf's RAW to a throw, or a swoosh sound and a yellow flash from Jeffry's counter hit + might not suffice for some, but there's still those combos (i.e. Jeffry's high damamge combos, Pai's triple bounce combo, etc) that appeal to the casual spectator.

As far as SF4 matches go, many people get excited over supers because they know the super is gonna happen, just not when. It's like watching fireworks. You see the person light them up, and yet you really won't know when the fireworks will go off, until it does... And when it does, suspense then changes to excitement as one watches the fireworks display... As soon as people see that super meter get full, it changes the mood of the crowd, even if they don't outwardly express it. It's not always the flashiness of the super, its the suspense that comes with it.

Think of the many game shows we have in the US that have some element of suspense. Jeopardy (getting a daily double-- yes there's some suspense in that to a degree), Wheel of Fortune (going bankrupt, getting that special trip to wherever, etc.), Who Wants to Be A Millionaire and the many other shows like it (they always have that long pause that draws the suspense out of people) or any "reality" tv show that eliminates people... It's not really flashy until afterwards when the suspense has reached its peak...

Excitement might not even come from just the super itself. It might be the fact that someone comboed into the super, and it was so damaging to the health bar and the person's ego... Or it could very well be that the spectators didn't expect this person to parry this move out of nowhere and then have ample amount of time to show off and combo... Some flash might not even come from a super (Gouken's combos come to mind...).

People have to understand that not everybody who plays fighting games or watches them is a hardcore, frame counting, combo fiend... Some people just like to throw some punches or kicks and see what happens... If they bust out a super, even better... Think of how many times you went to an arcade and saw casual people play mvc2, tekken, or even sf or ss... It's not really flash for the braindead either imo...

From a marketing standpoint, that particular company just got another customer... That means more money to make more games or a sequel that that game that that customer liked playing... I apologize if this doesn't make sense... I'm on my 5th cup of coffee...

 

Howcome you're always talking as if you speak for everyone or everything?

VF has plenty of flash in it man, and it can be downright exciting to watch for anyone(from experience). It depends on the characters, and it depends on the players playing the characters. And it also hugely depends on what you enjoy to look at as far as things closer to realism or exaggeration.

Look at some VF matches of Jin's Kage, or Mask's Jacky, as an example of some, what I would think is pretty much unbiased flash.

Then, speaking for myself, SRK seemed to have enjoyed some of the VF matches I had uploaded too.

VF is good cause you have the most control, you can make it flashy or boring. Just like any other fighter though, but with VF imo you have more control.

That's also what's bad about VF too though. There's so much to do, and it's not instant, there isn't instant gratification with something spectacular looking. Think about when you or someone else starts to play the game for the first time, you and your characters are both slow as a snail. That is boring. But in SF or Tekken you get something that looks crazy(effective or not) just mashing if you wanted to.

In VF there's PLENTY of room for filler mind tricks, and all types of movements and showoff for flash and entertainment(it's not that easy to do as opposed to other fighters out there). However alot of people atleast on this side of the world, tend to do absolutely nothing in those pockets, when you can do anything in the world.

Now THAT is boring.

 

Super IS getting an arcade release