So what are your thoughts on VF5 now?

For the third time, I like it because it allows a greater freedom about how to play. More options is always good in my books.

 

Basicly everything Jen said (specially including the overromanticising of Evo in hindsight).

I think VF5 is a better game then Final Tuned due to it being more varied and how characters have been fleshed out alone though. Also, I think tiers matter less here then in the VF4 era actually.

Stuff I'd like:

OM needs to be more consistent and should work in larger advantages. Also, I'd like to see UNIQUE OM attacks for all characters instead of generic OM P and OM K stats. So what if some characters got a better OM then others? That was always the case with evadeattacks etc.

I miss old Evo gameplay speed. When you play it again you're shocked at how fast it was moving about.

The old throw counterable only situation needs to return. Some moves that should only be punishable by throw and not punch etc like Pai's rising palms and much more. Simply put the punch and throw counterable situation is bad imo.

Reverse nitaku needs to be balanced and / or fixed. It seems unplanned how certain moves don't throwclash and how certain characters don't have good RN etc. I'd like to see 1 or 2 staple RN moves in a character (if you could OM in heavy adv it wouldn't be much of a problem). RN simply put was very fun. I really don't like certain sideeffect of the throwclash system like sabaki's clashing with throwattempts (they never should) imo fucking up their risk/payoff.

Edit: One solution I'd like is that when you do RN in your diss you didn't get a launch but always heavy buttstagger. You'd also need to use a big move / something that knocked down in order to get this effect.


PK is in need of nerfing, maybe it goes hand to hand together with the new situation of TC+AC being the same. PK on hit should maybe be something like +2 or something but I guess that's cause of...

10f Punches. I don't like them. Staggers to 10f punches etc are just to strong. 10f punches in general. I don't know what to do with them.

Wallsplats and wallcombos and staggers against walls > combos. They're to strong and tekkeneseque still.

Somehow I feel it's harder to punish failed evades with certain moves (in particular high moves)almost like VF has gotten the tekkenlike hitbox problem it never had before....

Hitboxes just feel weird for certain things. Range is incredible on some things and even though it looks like it doesn't hit it does.

I'd like faster CD cancel for movement but without VIP / Are returning if that would be possible.

What I do like;

The changing of P stats.
Fuzzy used more.
OM added even though it needs more work.
Many characters like Sarah's, Brad's, Goh's etc redesigns even though there might be a bit to go.
No more ARE/VIP.
No more enormous payoff from doing an evade / being abare.
Animations wise stuff like 2p, doing evades etc are much more clear.
I like the -6 situation.
In general I feel you need to vary your movelist options more.
0-frame throws. Doing abare on reaction against a throwattempt or TE's sucked.
Sideturned situations are awesome and fun.

 

I basically agree with most of what Jeneric said (especially "changes for the sake of change"), with 2 caveats:

1. comparing ARE/VIP to VF5 fuzzy guard is questionable, not only because of the input difficulty (which I think is significant), but because it's really a form of option select in the vein of ETEG, i.e. it depends on evading, which is beaten cleanly by circular attacks. VF5 fuzzy guard option selects away basically everything except low throws, which not everyone has.

2. there was plenty of bitching about VF5 before it was online . . . e.g my old 'WTF is OM for?' posts.

As for manji and sorias . . . there was a guessing game in VF4 in which you were guaranteed a throw attempt (yes, attempt), but no guaranteed attack. This let you do a lot of damage to someone not skilled in the game; but much less damage on average than a guaranteed PK + advantage, to someone skilled in the game. That guessing game is gone. Whether you think that is significant or not (I do), it really was removed in VF5 . Surely you understand what I am saying, regardless of whether you agree with it?

 

I wasn't really comparing these two side by side, just stating that VIP could kill almost nitaku entirely, and even delayed attacks and throws (which really is the main choice for beating things like ETEs) , effectively limiting nitaku before +6 immensely. Sure it is much harder then fuzzy guarding in VF5, but VIP was much, much easier then ARE (they completely eliminated VIP in FT for a reason).

And about fuzzy guarding in VF5...(I'm turning bitching mode on now)...Is there anyone else but me that thinks it's weird how much easier it is then in VF era? I mean, in VF4, mids were generally 14f and throws 8...that's a 6 frame window to fuzzy between. In VF5 throws are 12, mids the same. That's a 2 frame window. Is is just me, or shouldn't it logically be harder then ever to fuzzy guard?

EDIT: Also, delayed throws are much stronger then low throws for beating fuzzy guard.

 

ARE / VIP wasn't something easily / "cleanly" beaten by circular attacks at all. Unless you are Jacky and did a fast mid like 46k+g and liked that risk / payoff it gave you in medium adv to a specific respons that is. VF5 fuzzy guarding looses to delaythrow the best, and quite easily, and when done in -6 it looses to PK or 2p. I'm surprised you're actually saying that VF5 fuzzyguarding is stronger then ARE / VIP was cause it wasn't and never will be. Are / VIP you get a launcher on an evaded move and a throwattempt. VF5 fuzzy you get a guarded elbow adv on and maybe a ducked throwattempt with something like PK or your own throwattempt back.

 

I think fuzzy guard is easier to beat than you're saying, KoD... delay into 0f throw being the most obvious example. Just takes a little more thought and timing.

And yeah, I agree about VF4s guaranteed throws having a lot of value, and that they were removed. I just think that in place of that we got other valuable guessing games. That is, VF5 has different guessing games, but it arguably has more of them, which I think is an improvement.

And I still don't get what's with the complaining about turtling? What definition are we working with here. Any repeated defensive move is easy to crush. And if your opponent is correctly using multiple defensive options, then I would consider them a good player, and not a turtle at all. There are more defensive options now, and they're possibly easier for a new player to use. My opinion is that high levels of play are probably about the same... that is everyone before had mastered ETEG and such, so execution wasn't an issue, and the defensive guessing game existed. The easier fuzzy guard makes it so new players can also utilize good defense without achieving the highest level execution, which opens up similar guessing games. What exactly is the complaint?

I agree with a lot of what KiwE said, or at least don't actively disagree. Except wall combos... they exist to make positioning on non-ring out stages still be an important element of the game. They completely deserve to be ridiculously strong, and if you don't like, then you should learn to not let yourself get backed against a wall.

 

iirc Throws in VF4 had 4 active frames, so there was a 2 frames window for tapping G for fuzzy, in VF5 throws are 1 frame active, the window is 1 frame shorter for tapping G for fuzzy afaik.
Still in VF4 you had to be really quick to START your fuzzy cause the time to crouch was just enough for you to duck the throw, in VF5 you have a much larger margin on when to start fuzzying because the difference beetween the time to normal crouch (7 frames) is much shorter than the time the throw would connect.
I think the "easier feel" comes from that.

 

There are plenty of half-circular mids with good risk / reward.

Delay into 0f throw is not a pure counter to fuzzy. Crouchdash~launch being the most obvious counterexample. Low throw will beat that at -6, delay throw will not. Just because they've ducked an immediate standing throw on prediction doesnt mean they have to blindly stand and hold guard even if the opponent hasnt twitched.

True on both counts. I dont think anyone has a low 16 frames or faster that isnt disadvantaged on normal hit, except from backturned or special stances.

I'm not saying that VF5 fuzzy is invincible (or even that its a bad thing to have easily accessible defensive techniques), it just seems like sega didn't really think through what they were doing.

 

? Yes it is. Delayed throw was also standard tactic for beating fuzzy guard back in VF4 era.

Fuzzy guard is a purely mechanical motion, you simply wait a miniscule moment and throw and you'll catch them standing up.

Delayed throw IS the best option for beating fuzzy guard, no real argument to it. Also because it beats evade, something low throw doesn't.

 

Uh... crouchdash into launcher is not fuzzy guard, you'll get counter hit by the mid you were trying to use fuzzy guard to avoid originally. Obviously, yomi always wins hands down... everything has a counter. That said, a delayed throw will still always beat a true application of fuzzy guard.

What part, exactly, didn't sega think through? If you can agree that it's not overpowered compared to other defensive guessing games, and that it's not bad to have easily accessible defensive tools, then what part do you disagree with?

 

Fuzzy guard does not have to be mechanical. You have 14 frames to decide whether to tap G (or P, or whatever) based on whether they twitched. That's barely within human reaction times.

I said it wasnt invincible, not that it wasnt overpowered.

 

Lion's 1K is 16 frames and gives knockdown on any hit, but I'll agree to say that it's pretty rare /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

You're talking about fuzzy guard using crouch dash? You can beat that using P, then it doesn't matter if they hit G or not. For regular crouch fuzzy, it must be pure mechanical if you want to beat straight throw/mid mixup, making a delayed throw practically guaranteed.

And for trying to fuzzy and press G on reaction: That's why people do things like KG cancel or crouch dashes to delay their throws. And I don't think it really is possible in the long run to get clean fuzzys while trying to press G on reaction. It might work in a controlled practice room environment, not in real matches.

 

You can beat it using P at -6, not at -5 (for 11f jab).

Yes, there are all kinds of (impure) counters to fuzzy guard. Most of them involve intentionally giving up your advantage. At least when you were doing that (delay) in VF4, it was because the person had reliable ETEG skills, not because they were 1337 at tapping down.

 

Obviously it doesn't have to be mechanical, my point was merely that we have to set some limits to what we're discussing, you can't see fuzzy guard is too powerful because if you don't use fuzzy guard at all, options that beat it won't work on you >.>

And how do you get 20 frames to react when trying to block a 12f throw or a 14f mid? I think in other threads on here, some people have said under 15f frames is impossible to hit check except possibly for the best players in the world. I'm not denying that you get good options out of fuzzy guard if you choose to apply them... but the choice comes down to either fuzzy guarding or not fuzzy guarding based on yomi, there's very few people who can stop in the middle of a fuzzy guard attempt and do some other move on reaction, if there are any at all?

 

At -5 it's completely unnecessary to use crouch dash to fuzzy guard, since you can use regular crouch to fuzzy. However, this really MUST be mechanical if you want to beat throw/mid mixup, which means a delayed throw is practically guaranteed to go in. There's no G tapping involved in this. Why are you mixing these things up?

I don't know if you know this, but you did the exact same thing to defeat fuzzy in VF4.

 

Ah, now we finally get to the heart of the matter. Why is ETEG being allowed to start a guessing game any better than fuzzy guard being allowed to start a guessing game? The reason fuzzy guard is easier is because you do it from smaller disadvantage, that is, the smaller the mistake you make, the easier it should be to get out of trouble... and that turns it to be the case, amazing. Remember the defender has already taken damage, and that actually fuzzy guarding results in 0 damage being dealt, you're required to hit a 2 frame window when you rise out of crouch to avoid the mid, and if you're opponent doesn't try to do something like delay to beat the fuzzy guard, then at best you're both back at neutral frames. I can't find anything innately wrong with all of that, it's just forcing the attacker to use more mind games rather than getting easy damage opportunities handed to them.

Are you just sad that your "skill moves" are suddenly less amazing? It's sort of a theme of VF5 to ease off execution... look at the new weak versions of Akira's combos. It was all a secret plot by am2 to make new players immediately able to grasp the guessing games that occur during VF, and make use of them. It's certainly not any harder to punish someone for doing the exact same move in VF5 than it was in previous VFs, there's just less completely guaranteed damage when you disregard the defenders actions.

 

I agree with Manjimaru. VF4 matches were not too beautiful or stylish. I just made folks guess high or low or throw, wakeups etc. Now VF5 feels like a new dimension. Its more fluid. I cant play the same cuz folks have the tools to beat what I did in VF4. And I like it that way. VF5 IS THE THINKING MAN'S FIGHTING GAME, Like chess at mach speed. So many options at any moment!! Only revealed on replays ( much needed feature. C'mon Sega! ) Some folks dont like to think and dont like the open situations VF5 offers. Adapt brothers and you will see how fun it is. So many possibilities. IMO VF5 best fighter ever. The Most balanced. Now if only folks could drop the ego. and start using their brains. I like how everyone can develop a unique style if they really want to. And how every opponent, even the basic play of noobs, teaches you something new.