So what are your thoughts on VF5 now?

I agree with Manjimaru. VF4 matches were not too beautiful or stylish. I just made folks guess high or low or throw, wakeups etc. Now VF5 feels like a new dimension. Its more fluid. I cant play the same cuz folks have the tools to beat what I did in VF4. And I like it that way. VF5 IS THE THINKING MAN'S FIGHTING GAME, Like chess at mach speed. So many options at any moment!! Only revealed on replays ( much needed feature. C'mon Sega! ) Some folks dont like to think and dont like the open situations VF5 offers. Adapt brothers and you will see how fun it is. So many possibilities. IMO VF5 best fighter ever. The Most balanced. Now if only folks could drop the ego. and start using their brains. I like how everyone can develop a unique style if they really want to. And how every opponent, even the basic play of noobs, teaches you something new.

 

Not with speed there isn't. ARE / VIP also "won" against delayed launchers and delayed throws (something Fuzzy doesn't) for this very reason. Your risk payoff in trying to stop it wasn't good to say the very least. Good risk it certainly was not as if you guess the wrong way you're launched just by that.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Delay into 0f throw is not a pure counter to fuzzy. Crouchdash~launch being the most obvious counterexample. Low throw will beat that at -6, delay throw will not. Just because they've ducked an immediate standing throw on prediction doesnt mean they have to blindly stand and hold guard even if the opponent hasnt twitched...
You have 14 frames to decide whether to tap G (or P, or whatever) based on whether they twitched. That's barely within human reaction times.</div></div>


In my world crouchdash launch will get you MC'd most of the times. It won't be pretty either cause opponent will be using +6 nitaku on you if he attacks or something that gives stagger but is safe. Your so called punishment of a delayed throwattemt isn't either there cause most of the time you will just clash with a delayed throwattempt. This is not evo. Fuzzying and doing just an elbowspeed move gtd against a -direct- throw is hard enough, add in delaythrows in the mix and you're basicly fucked. You don't decide how long the opponent delays his throw for - he does. Stop with this 14f reactiontime nonsense to Hold G or Press P or whatever. Or are you saying you use this technqiue on a regular basis on your own? Have you even tried it in the Dojo? People are complaining about reaction time for Goh's knee / launcher being 31 frames in the Goh forum. You're arguing for "unpure" 14f reactionspeed tests (I'd like to know where you got the 14f number from) which are highly debatable that makes delaythrow weak against someone fuzzying. Besides that you base a huge deal of your argument on the opponent not "twitching" in this reactiontest. That's not how delaythrows work - there's dash throws, KG throws, CD throws etc... all of those options have secondary benifits as opposed to just standing there.

For understanding here's an example;

You're -6 and you do fuzzy by CD. You have to "wait" for those -6 frames to pass until your character does anything but you have to start by doing 33 (CD) Asap to avoid the throwattempt. You have to do 33 deep enough to avoid the throw and you have to do it after your recovery is gone / not to early. That part is mechanical, I don't think even you dissagree with that.

You can not block until the 13th frame (which is why you get hit by a 2p) and you aren't considered ducking until 11th frame (which is why you're hit by MW/LW punches). You have to start by doing 33 ASAP to go under the throwattempt. The elbow will arrive at you @14frames. Either you're holding G and letting go or you're staggered by a mid. You can't CD and not G cancel immidieatly and avoid the mid/stagger - it's impossible. And you DO start with a CD. So on the 11th frame, which should be just when a throw would reach you / go over you (you're considered ducking) you're saying you decide if it's a good time to hold G or not and distinguish between someone doing attack, dashthrow, kg throw, just standing there, CD'ing in for attack/throw. You're in a crouched state (you have to be), the elbow/attack will hit you if you don't G cancel and if you G cancel you'll be in a standing state i.e get 0-frame throwed.

That's a Mechanical Response in my book.

P.S; I Might have fucked up this post a bit, very tired right now. I'd just like to add that it's NATURAL that not everybody loves a new VF game. The same happened with the transition from VF3 to VF4 with a lot of people feeling VF3 was more hardcore and wanted to stay with that game. People come and people go and that's the way of life. Some people will like a new VF game and some will not and it doesn't have to do with how "good" it is actually. Each to his own. Besides, looking back, VF4 ver C was a pretty fucked up game. VF4 had both Evo and FT but everybody remembers VF4 for the latter. I'm sure when/if VF5 Evo comes things will come more together for the most part. I remembered how everyone whined how it was to much like VF4 when it came and now people want it to be more like VF4 - go figure.

Edit; Actually all of this is sort of silly:

If you don't press G it's NOT fuzzyguarding. A crouchdash is not a fuzzyguard.

 

Even though i generally agree with KiwE, i'd just like to comment on a previous post:

Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif seems to be -1 on hit. Lion's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is -2 on hit. DS vane doesn't even have a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is -3 on hit. I don't think the problem is system specific to VF5, it's more like character specific if you ask me.

Notice however that the characters with the slowest punches, ie. wolf and jeffry, are the ones with the monster wall combos.

OM's are character specific as far as hitboxes are concerned. The frames might suggest otherwise but their behaviours are very different: Lion's OM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif seems to duck uner lows; Vane's OM /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif seems to have extremely short range etc.

If OMs had diferent stats the immediate result would just be more character specific gripes like the ones you mention above. Think about it from SEGA's viewpoint for a while - even if they wished to implement such a feature the amount of possible outrage from their player base surely detered them from doing so in the OM's first incarnation.

 

I'm a VF veteran (played every iteration lots since the first game in the arcades and on Saturn) and I prefer VF5 over 4.

I was always a massive VF3 fan. I used to like the first 2 but found them far too simple. The lack of moves available in the games made them very limiting (even VF2 tournament veterans are ridiculously repetitive). VF3 fixed this by giving every character enough moves to add variety and unpredictability and also added some highly fun elements such as the varying floors/steps/hills and interesting fighting arenas while improving on the already excellent feeling of VF2.

VF4 was a huge change and didn't appeal to me. The game was deeper than 3 and far more tactical but the fun wasn't there. VF5 is really similar but I have since gotten used to Virtua Fighter's new style.

I prefer VF5 simply because it has added more to the series and seems to have added the fun back into the series. After getting used to all the great new moves and characters I wouldn't like to have these taken away by playing VF4 anyway. The slight changes such as OM and Throw Clashes do not take away from VF but add to it, the more tactics available to you or your opponent the better.

My favourite game of all time was VF3 - it is now VF5 - the game just keeps giving and giving.
So yes, I prefer VF5 over 4 but if AM2 keep doing everything right, I will probably change my favourite of all time to VF6 in a few years time!

 

I find that VF5 is pretty much VF:FT with unnescessary "Oh my god VF5 is pretty much VF:FT so let's change some stuff" stuff added in.

 

@Edraug. Yes but there were a lot of fuckups. I used to play Pai in VF5, every stagger of the type OMP or 3k guaranteed PK in VerB. Now her PK is -3 on hit unless you go into stance (which is shit cause now Bokutai P doesn't interupt anything anymore with her just getting +3 going into stance as opposed to +5 earlier). The point was that in order to compensate for 10f punches also you got more advantage then ever for many chars so that PK > elbow couldn't loose against 10f punches. For instance Kage can do PK > 33p etc against a 2p response. Brad can do PK > 2p+k6p etc while earlier there was just PK > elbow. This combined with many more attack counterable situations (i.e old throw counterable) has led to something weird imo.

About monster wallcombos; I don't think they're planned but fuckups. Just look @early multi bouncecombos for proof. Something like 100dmg was a magical number earlier in VF that you hardly saw - now it's almost standard. Stuff like Kage 3p+k > knee wallcrumble or Goh 4k > launcher etc all net a hell of a lot of damage. Lei at a wall isn't particulary fun either. With a bit of planning many characters can net huge damage from a wall.

About OM; I just think it would be more fun ;\/ A character like Akira could have a deep OM game with 3-4 from it like OM P+K and OM K+G etc, you could also build it into the characters fightingstyle. Right now it mostly feels like a addon for certain characters that doesn't make sense. Besides that OM K's stats fade bigtime against OM P's which also isn't as situational. Not only that, certain characters benefit from it more then others. If I have a 10f puncher and I do OM P and get a sidestagger I basicly have P(K) etc gtd. Not only that, if I'm guarded my standing P will win over a elbow back as I'm only -3 - limiting the opponents options severly. The situation is totally different for a HW. So as such, OM and it's use is already very char dependent.

 

I just want to say about the wall combos:

It makes PERFECT sense to me that wall combos should be absolutely monstrous. In a stage with no walls you get ringed out and just lose. There has to be some payoff for hitting someone into a wall where you don't win automatically by ring out. That's why you can do a 100 damage on a wall combo, it equalizes the fact that the wall is there in the first place.

If you ONLY had to pay attention to your position in the ring on stages without walls then you would take away a lot of depth when playing on a stage that does have walls. This way it always matters where you are in relation to the edge of the ring. Plus it adds another level of depth that you can't just go for ring outs all the time, you also have to master different combos at the wall. For example, when playing a Kage who loves ring outs, he can't just blindly use that strategy the whole time. Now he has to look for more complex and difficult wall combos added into his overall strategy because a pure ring out isn't possible on a walled stage.

It adds a lot to the depth of the game. Ring positioning is VERY important in VF5...

 

I agree completely with Gernsburg on wall combos... it seems so obvious that it was meant to work that way, that I don't understand how you can complain about them, KiwE.

To Cuz... try reading Jeneric's post, and spending more time with the game. There are a lot of pretty huge changes from FT, but it seems to take some getting used to VF5 before they really stand out. I guess it's similar enough to VF4, that it's possible to play VF5 the same way you would play VF4, so everyone starts that way. I'd say it probably took me a month or two to fully understand a lot of the changes, and integrate them into my playstyle, but they're definitely there.

And, finally, to KiwE... I think I agree about some of your PK comments, but I've been feeling it makes characters more unique, rather than really unbalanced. That is, PK > elbow is no longer a canned response that's generally safe, you need to really vary your style depending on who you play. It just means you have to spend more time learning each character matchups. Think of some of the stance/sabaki characters... 2P is almost useless against Shun because he can so easily hit you through it. It seems like the PK situation is just an extension of that, such that characters with fewer special stances/sabakis, still require you to know which moves are effective, and which aren't in order to beat them.

 

It was a great game but I still say VF4 evo is better and it will continue to be better because of the superior training mode and that it teaches you how to actually play the game. If VF5 evo does this and actually teaches you how to play the game then it will be better because that was the only weakness in VF5, the lack luster training mode. VF5 has more offensive options and allows for more creativity in the area of game play. The online match making system is something else to be desired (It sucks big time) but I am sure VF5 evo will change this at least I hope so. Overall VF5 is still a work in progress and when it is finally complete only then will we finally be able see just how good it really is compares to VF4 evo a complete game in my mind anyway

 

Best fighting game I've ever played, but the training mode of VF4Evo is obviously much better.

 

Back to the "there are not guaranteed throw situation anymore because throw at an advantage takes 12f".

I guess it's kind of true. If you have a +10 adv with a fast character, you'll go for a PK. even if you get +12, you might got for the guaranteed PK or fast mid rather than a throw that can be evaded anyways.

But I guess this evens out with the fact that there are 0frame throws anytime the opponent is standing, either normally or just guarding, no?

Moreover, I can't see how turtling is a good tactic. If you keep guarding, you'll get thrown at 0f. Now, those are quite nasty to evade. I don't have Xbox live, but playing high ranked players in Quest mode at Expert difficulty, the more I turtle, the more I lose.

For the rest, I really prefer VF5 to VF4Evo. Graphics are better and yes, they do matter, if only because you don't have to see the game throw an interlaced TV. God if only PS2 was VGa ready like the Dreamcast was...

With regards to the characters I know/like, Akira's new /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and the fact that Daiden Housui is a proper lifter, which I guess compensates for the fact that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is now just useless whilst it was Akira's most usable floater up to FT.

All in all I love the game, although I have to say that yes, some hitboxes are quite fucked up, especially for rising attacks...

 

It seems a lot of people have issue with the fact that less things are throw counterable only or there are less nitaku situations because of throw speed. I believe you guys might be missing the big picture. In VF4, throw speed was constant. In VF5, there are both 0f and 12f throws. In essence this means you can now use throw and make it more punishable in a lot more situations. In VF4 matches I don't recall seeing people just sitting around in crouch as a defensive strategy. However in VF5, the Japanese seem to understand the threat of the 0f throw so much that, they learn to defend properly from this position in a safe manner.

0f throw is now a huge threat. I believe AM2 added it to discourage turtling behind block, and encourage offense among players (I recall a comment where people were turtling and the developers said that was not how they meant their game to be played). By having more "throw guaranteed" situations with zero frame throw, I believe AM2 thought having so many nitaku/throw based situations was overkill. That is why I think throws were elongated to 12f. This now shortens the number of true nitaku situations you are allowed due to fuzzy.

The clash system I believe was just to define how they wanted players to be treating nitaku - as true risk reward. Manji mentioned on the first page that players were either heavy abare or heavy offensive. Clash really introduces a clear cut line by saying: You can use reverse nitaku - but use these moves, as you will now be able to deal lots of damage, and it will make MORE sense why you are attacking. This gives a better handle to beginners too as was said, because now they will look for those moves that don't clash (although, as Sebo said, I don't know why fk with Jeff won't give reverse nitaku at large disadvantage... maybe because it tends to duck some lows on advantage, and they didn't want to make it too powerful for him due to the damage he would be getting? Just a guess).

 

Don't you mean jump over lows? Being able to duck lows would be scary.

It kind of bothers me that big-risk launchers that do not have these properties will clash majority of the time. Knees at least should be able to launch; they're high-risk for high reward anyways. Of course, characters have other moves that can throw clash in place of the knees, but still . . . . Knees can only jump over lows right before their hit frames. If knees jumped lows right at the beginning, then I would understand the reason for their clashing (to make low attacks be able to MC against knees), but they're not reliable anti-low moves, especially at disadvantage.

 

I do like VF5. I like VF4 evo about the same or better (largely, perhaps, because it was my very first VF game...and indeed my very first serious attempt at the fighting genre which probably plays strongly on the whole nostalgia factor). These are the problems I have with VF5:

-OM, as was said before, needs to be fleshed out more. Unique OM attacks (perhaps have sabakis and other unique stuff for different characters...who knows) for each character would be awesome. OM's need to factor into combos as well (IMHO); for example, something like...Akira, open stance combo on Aoi: Knee (MC), OM/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif to opponent's right--->bounces opponent, follow appropriately. Now while you started the combo with perhaps both players on the edge of the ring, you finish it with an easy ring out (you now face the ring); hopefully you guys can see what I'm getting at. Basically, it's re-positioning yourself mid-combo. This use of OM can really bring about some very interesting and creative combos. And, as was previously mentioned, OMs with regard to evading need to become more consistent in the world of VF.

-The home port sucked balls (training mode and quest mode for instance...replay feature...etc). It just really sucked compared to evo and this was a major disappointment. It felt like a huge step backwards (AI, dumbed down quest mode, retardedly dumbed down training mode).

-Stages seem much less dynamic than from VF4 evo. Music went from "lol@crazy VF music" to "generic fighting game music". No more breakable walls (which again affects the dynamic aesthetics of the stage). Basically, it just seems like they sucked out the adrenaline and over all "badassness" (no matter how cheezy that badassness was). Akira reversing a back flipping (right word?, the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif of Pai's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/ub.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is what I'm talking about) Pai into the Evo Colosseum's wall shattering it to pieces as a bolt of lightning tore through the sky was...satisfying to say the least.

-Speed. VF4 evo just feels faster. Be it because throws were 8 frames rather than 12 or because of whatever (maybe they simply slowed the animation speed down)...it just felt faster.

 

K~G? OM->throw?

And as for the throw-opportunity guessing game, yes I understand what you mean. I however dont think it is that big loss, because now there are only few worthy moves that would go that far into disadvantage and we'd just end up seeing very little of that guessing game now. And at worst it would just make the game even more turtlable..Depending on how punch/throw relative speeds were changed. Lets just accept that its the flipside of the more easier defense, which has an impact among the 'lesser skilled players'. Not by any means has fuzzy made ETTEG throwescapes 'obsolete'.

edit: And if you want me to bitch about something, then lets all bitch about the training mode! Im sure we all agree on that. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Heh, Akiras /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is +4 on normal hit.. Not bad for 11 frame move, huh. (In fact I didnt even know this until I checked jsut now...I thought it was the old +2..)

 

Actually, playing Denkai today, Knee seems to ALWAYS jump over low p at disadvantage. Kind of scary, lol. I would like to know from how much minus this can work.

 

The OM is already used in combos AFAIK - most blatant example is Aoi's floats but i've seen it used elsewere too, eg. DS vane stomach staggers etc.

 

Another good thing about VF5: Sarah's costume B.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Ah, kk, didn't know that/don't remember from youtube videos. Gonna have to check that out later.