So what are your thoughts on VF5 now?

I agree with you on this also. Obviously a wall combo should not be as devastating as a Ring-Out as the walled stages aren't as vast - so if it was possible to do 100% damage on a wall combo then it wouldn't be at all fair as it doesn't take too much work to get your opponent close to the arena edge. I think it's perfectly fair as it is - walls give an advantage through destructive combos in small arenas, no walls means instant death but are in large arenas and the small walls are the middle ground - medium sized arena, possible (mild) wall combos and also a small chance of instant ring out death. Perfect game design, as with the rest of the game.

In the words of Comic Book Guy: "Best. Game. Ever..."

 

OM combos are usually strict timing, but necessary for highest damage juggles for most characters. Usually it is just for frame wasting and changing the angle, which opens up different juggles.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's not fuzzyguard! You'll get MC'ed! It'll clash! etc. etc.</div></div>

I'm going to drop the 14 frames to fuzzy guard thing until i get a programmable joystick built; I think you guys are misunderstanding how VF5 fuzzy guard works, most importantly the size of the window between when you can buffer the crouchdash* and start watching your opponent, and when you have to push guard. But I'd like to prove it, no speculation.

* I said crouchDASH because merely crouching requires a G press much earlier, just holding down wont duck in time, as jeneric noted.

That being said, I know (and can prove now) that you are flat out misunderstanding some of what I was saying. If you think crouchdash into launcher will always get you MCed, or clash with immediate throws, or clash with delayed 0 frame throws, you are misunderstanding a few basic facts: A. Motion isn't considered an attack, and wont result in an MC if you get hit during it; B. Whiffed throws don't clash; C. 0 frame throws don't clash.

Try the following:

1. Go to dojo. Pick, say, jeff vs vanessa cpu.
2. Set the cpu to mid or throw (try throw for a while first if you want to get the timing down).
3. Do something nice and safe like P+K
4. Do a crouchdash motion like you were going to slowly buffer a doublepalm, but push K after a while instead. (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif ~ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif).
5. If vane did a knee, you just got normal hit by it during your crouch, for a measly amount of damage, and she has nothing guaranteed.
6. If vane did a throw, it whiffed, not clashed, and she's now eating a minor counter knee for half of her lifebar.

This is a fun way to practice combos, I do it all the time. It will be beaten cleanly by lowthrow. This is why I maintain that low throw is a pure counter to fuzzy guard (it hits at 12 frames, just like throw, so they have to choose standing or crouching).

Notice that if she had delayed long enough for a zero-frame throw, it wont clash either. Pretty much the only way a zero-frame throw will work in this situation is if it somehow manages to hit just after the zero-frame safety window and before jeff is ducking; I'm not aware of any motions in the game that can be buffered to reliably waste 10 frames. So effectively randomly, sometimes delay throw will stop a fuzzy guard before it ducks.

If you think this kind of shenanigans (on either offense or defense) is "depth" . . . it strikes me as basically unpredictable (just like OM . . . hmmm); I generally like games that are based on skill (ie identify the situation, make the correct guess, execute it) more than randomness.

Please save the whining about how opp would use a bigger launching move (cause normal hit floats are so great against a crouching opponent), or delay throw is better anyway cause it beats ETEG in addition to (not) beating CD ~ launcher, or whatever; that's not the point. Point is changing throw speed had a bunch of apparently unforseen consequences that make the game less solid.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But sega did this for the noobs on purpose / you're just mad because your leet skills arent leet anymore / youre full of ego and dont want to think etc etc.</div></div>

The idea that I don't want to think, have too much ego involved, or that I have leet execution skills is plainly laughable to anyone who's met me, just ask them. I'd benefit from a simpler to execute game; problem is that's not what we got, we got a less dependable system.

Notice that the addition of the 0-frame safety window, and the way it has been tweaked over several revisions is more evidence of my point that sega was not thinking through the throw speed changes fully; if they had done this on purpose, it would have been fixed to begin with. Ditto for the idea that which moves clash was somehow done on purpose as a balancing tool (why does wolf's RN do 2x as much as jeff? Why does pai have 15 moves that beat clash instead of 1)

Some stuff was clearly done on purpose to help reduce the difference between leet execution and noobs (akira easy mode combos). Example of that for defensive techs would have been e.g.

- reduce the number of throw escapes that will be accepted by the system, but increase the window to input them
- allow only 1 clean throw escape for full reduction of damage if you guess right; mashing throw escapes results in only e.g 50% reduction.

That's not what we have here. What we have here looks more like
RN is too powerful . . . so lets make throws clash (sometimes) . . . but that would make throws too powerful . . . so let's slow them down . . . but then people can fuzzy guard and just run away . . . Oh, look, it's pretty, and there's bunny ears and bingo!

This is not depth, or making the game simpler for noobs (try explaining to someone what OM is for), it's change for change's sake.

VF5 is VF4 with a pretty face hiding a bunch of duct tape.

That being said, it still destroys any other 3d fighting game on the market right now. . .

 

OM I believe is a VERY useful tool that has saved me MANY matches, and gotten me wins on many matches. Don't you watch Japanese youtube videos also? They use it all the time. Also, what amazes me is the efficiency with which the Japanese use OM k to get a side crumple. They use it almost like a just frame. First they side step the move, then if they hear the noise, they immediately tap p+k+g then the k. If you did a move with significant recovery or that moves a bit forward that allows them to get to the proper position (Akira's elbows), you get crumpled. I got this done on me a lot by Japanese players at the start of rounds, and it almost seemed like they just disappeared and I found my self falling to the ground and getting juggled.

I use it a lot though for ring positioning and pressure. With it, I can quickly get into a position to better pressure my opponent for a ring out (they have to be cautious of throw, so it opens up more attacks so I can get the ring out anyway), and I also use it when I know my opponent could be in a good position to get a ring out on me.

I don't like fighting at weird angles. I know that if I am at an angle, and I get a throw opportunity, sometimes I won't be able to get as much damage on a walled stage, since they fall off the wall weird sometimes. So if my opponent is far enough away, sometimes I will just OM to quickly get parallel to the wall. I also use it to pressure tech rolling opponents and keep their back to the wall or their back to the outside of the stage so that they have to think about the ring out (this will sometimes lead them to making mistakes that I can capitalize on for the win). I haven't even mentioned the usefulness of the OM P at advantage to get a stagger if they attack, thus giving you an opportunity to throw, or attack further and get nice damage. Yesterday I was playing Denkai, and I had him near the edge of the ring, so I used OM P, and he was staggered. I figured he might try to attack again, since he didn't want me to get a ring out, so I used OM P to the opposite side (this also would have left me parallel to the outside of the ring, even if he had managed to block it, so in a good position regardless). Followed by a quick pp (I use Akira), I got the ring out and the match. That sounds like depth for a reason there my friend.

To me, OM is one of the coolest features in the game. But then again, this is my first VF, so I'm not limited to any fixed way of thinking. Clearly the Japanese aren't either, as they quickly adjusted to it, and now you ALWAYS see it being used by players at high levels. It seems the problem might be with you, and not with AM2 for adding a great, and innovative new feature that adds great stuff to the idea of the 3d fighting space.

 

Yeh the om makes turtling hard as hell. Take that stuff out and I (vanessa) could back up for days. I hate when people dodge and move forward at the same time. WTH is that. Take that stuff outta VF. lol

 

As a totally noob in this game a can say that this is definitely the best one. Mostly because online and how much FUN it gives.

I really enjoy playing this game and only this matters.

 

are you being sarcastic? you do realise you can hit people out of OM?
Just do her full circular kick /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (I think defensive stance) from range and let's see someone use OM to get in, try it please /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

I dont understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying it wasnt like this in VF4evo? Now we have at least throw clash that protects the character doing throw in advantageous situation. It is by no means faultless, but it works better than in Evo. I disliked the reverse nitaku concept, because it in essence led to people using abare way too much. Also, maybe its just me but I dont want Jeffry to be able to use reverse nitaku with his knee and oh-so-difficult 107 point counterhit combo in every situation.. Thats just one example. The reward for just singlemindedly attacking in about any situation was too good in evo. Period.

Also, its not like reverse nitaku is completely gone. Problem is that it may be better option for some characters more than others. I hope this gets fixed in VF5evo or whichever the next version will be.

KOD:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you think this kind of shenanigans (on either offense or defense) is "depth" . . . it strikes me as basically unpredictable (just like OM . . . hmmm); I generally like games that are based on skill (ie identify the situation, make the correct guess, execute it) more than randomness.</div></div>
So um, first you say that having to guess is 'random' and bad, then you say that making correct guess would be 'real' depth? huh?

 

In response to the original post, here are my thoughts.

Last night I played my first few hours of VF5 on the Xbox360 - albeit on a pad as I wait for a stick in the mail. Got myself set up, and jumped right in to Ranking Matches, having really only played VF5 on 3 previous occasions at kbcat's (psst Jerky, thanks again btw). My opinion on the game itself is that it feels so much like VF4, that I would call it VF4FT2 - some neat new things that give us all something to discuss and theorycraft. For me, the fundamental difference, is this whole introduction of VF to the online world - something many of us argued would never happen. But here it is /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

The question posed by others is about how this new way of playing VF will impact the NAVF scene. For many years, I have been a proponent of the development and support of the NAVF scene. I have been fortunate to have watched it evolve from the "Glory Days" of VF2 in the Toronto arcades, through the transition into a console-centric scene that started with VF3tb on the Dreamcast. The lack of accessibility in the arcades was a tough hit to the NAVF arcade group across Canada and the US and without the console versions perhaps we wouldn't be talking much on these forums today. Either way, consoles have proven to be the lifeblood of VF in North American much to the chagrin of a few of us arcade junkies who nostalgically wish it was different.

Last night, was simply awesome. I played like a complete nubcake on a pad, fighting with the controls and cursing at missed this and that and "omg, I can't believe I lost" was my motto for most of the duration. But it was amazing. It was amazing to fight against 5th Dan Jacky players with win:loss records of 1108:1242. 2300 matches thus far? This guy clearly likes the game, regardless of his current level of skill. And I have never heard of this guy, or the other 40 players that I challenged as I pad'ed my way to 1st Kyu. The variety of characters chosen, the customized look'n'feel that all these people have put some effort into, the availability of human opponents that are decent, some pretty good, some clearly beginners, was nothing short of astounding.

The fact of the matter is this: VF5 for Xbox Live has already had a positive impact on the NAVF scene. It has attracted a pool of players that no series of console gatherings or tournaments could ever have achieved. Sure, the quality of play could use help, but this is always going to be the case. The challenge for us who are 'in the know' and have been part of the community building processes in the past is going to need to be focused on building rapport, sharing knowledge, and harnessing a group of players we never considered in the past. I'm sure some of the veteran players out there can relate when I say that whenever we saw someone put a quarter into our local VF4:Evo or VF4:FT machine, we would get excited - "How good is he/she?" "Who's that?" "Are they new? Or just a passer by looking to get rid 0.5cents?". There was always a hope of the slim chance that this stranger was perhaps willing to stand around and talk about the game and put in some matches and be the "new guy" in our group of VFers. Now, this scenario, quite frankly, happens every 2 minutes or so on XboxLive. It's up to us to to grab hold of this opportunity and nurture the NAVF scene more than ever before.

XboxLive has changed VF, in my opinion, in a more positive way than any other aspect of scene development has in over a decade.

 

WTF? Are you misunderstanding me on purpose? When did I say having to guess is random and bad? The whole point of the game is (used to be) identifying what you thought the opponent was going to do and making the correct guess to beat it.

What's bad is making the CORRECT GUESS, and having it randomly NOT WORK (or only work so situationally as to be effectively random). Examples of this are delay for 0-frame throw that only really works if you can waste exactly 10 frames, or OM that is entirely dependent on how the animation of a particular counterattack happens to interact with OM at a particular disadvantage and range.

Oh, and, btw, jeff doesn't have any 107 point knee combos at all, much less minor counter ones. If RN was too powerful (arguably true), why not, y'know, affect the risk / reward ratio of it DIRECTLY by reducing damage done for minor counters against throws, instead of half-ass works sometimes ducktape solutions like clash

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try the following:

1. Go to dojo. Pick, say, jeff vs vanessa cpu.
2. Set the cpu to mid or throw (try throw for a while first if you want to get the timing down).
3. Do something nice and safe like P+K
4. Do a crouchdash motion like you were going to slowly buffer a doublepalm, but push K after a while instead. (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif ~ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif).
5. If vane did a knee, you just got normal hit by it during your crouch, for a measly amount of damage, and she has nothing guaranteed.
6. If vane did a throw, it whiffed, not clashed, and she's now eating a minor counter knee for half of her lifebar.</div></div>The problem with this example you're giving is that it is NOT fuzzy guard. The only thing you win against is throws and nothing else.

If an opponent DOES fuzzy guard, they'll stand up in time to eat a delayed throw. That's why delayed throws are good against FUZZY GUARDING. The example you're giving is basically just a roundabout way to punish whiffed throws, nothing else.

And you're taking the convenient route by using Vanessa as an example. Other characters you'll eat an elbow and get staggered, some even get knockdowns. It wouldn't surprise me if you get counterhit if the opponent does something like a beatknuckle either, which is definitely valid in the +4 and above range.

 

Used to be? Do you actually believe that VF5 is no longer a rock, paper, scissors game?

News flash - VF5 is not this brand new game that has completely disregarded everything that VF4 had. They are basically the same game but with a few minor additions and changes. To listen to you, the OM and Throw Clashes have completely changed it into a shambles. I think you need to take your nostalgia blinkers off and accept that playing VF5 doesn't make you unfaithful to your beloved VF4.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try the following:

1. Go to dojo. Pick, say, jeff vs vanessa cpu.
2. Set the cpu to mid or throw (try throw for a while first if you want to get the timing down).
3. Do something nice and safe like P+K
4. Do a crouchdash motion like you were going to slowly buffer a doublepalm, but push K after a while instead. (/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif ~ /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif).
5. If vane did a knee, you just got normal hit by it during your crouch, for a measly amount of damage, and she has nothing guaranteed.
6. If vane did a throw, it whiffed, not clashed, and she's now eating a minor counter knee for half of her lifebar.

</div></div>

Congratulations KoD, you've found a way to beat a DIRECT THROW attempt (and absolutely nothing else) that can be ducked... by ducking.
Now tell me what the FUCK that has to do with DELAYED THROWS being good against FUZZYGUARD and make my day m8.

In your own (extremly convinent) example (where we're asked to not think of other possibilities) you could've used PK (37dmg +4) to win against a directthrow, delayedthrow, AND crouchthrow. OMG CROUCHTHROW IS AN *UNPURE* COUNTER if I do this1111!!! ;(

That you're still coming from the point of view that the person that does a DELAY throw does it in a mechanical way (not waiting for you to pop back up / reaction etc) while the one doing fuzzyguard has lots of reactiontime to adapt is amazing.

Atleast you dumped the 14f reaction argument. I'd still like to give you a pepsichallenge of guarding right level between Pai 1k and 6p, Goh 46p and 3p (two 14f moves whatever of different hight) etc on reaction regulary just for kicks though so tell me when you get that controller up and running.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This is not depth, or making the game simpler for noobs (try explaining to someone what OM is for), it's change for change's sake.</div></div>

P.S; 0frame throws are probably one of the greatest additions to a fightinggame ever made (and I bet others will follow suit). Try playing Tekken a bit on just mediumlevel and you'd know why.

Nobody is arguing about stuff not being added random and/or in a dumb way in fightinggames... but this isn't just for VF. But compared to other game franchises it happens less here so you should be happy; hell we didn't even get Darth Vader added.

Instead of using revisions, and further balancing as "proof" about fuckups you should be happy they even happen as it will become more and more rare in the future. Just cause Mortal Kombat doesn't get patched a lot in hindsight doesn't mean it's a great product from the get go and / or flawless system ffs. I mean come on?

I'll tell you one thing though: It's somewhat weird though how you credit certain things to planned development from Segaeasy combos - the game is getting more easy!) and not as fuckups / bad planning when you see it fit in your trail of thought. Then you ignore that along the same lines a fat RN knee in the face against a throwattempt takes less skill then ETE/fuzzy. RN "maybe" was to powerfull as you say...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Some stuff was clearly done on purpose to help reduce the difference between leet execution and noobs (akira easy mode combos).</div></div>

First of all, VF has never had very hard combos as compared to Tekken etc (there are combos you'll never land in your lifetime). The difficulty when it comes to execution has more lied in hitschecking, stancechecking etc and that hasn't changed a bit. Second, and more importantly, this is BS. VF5 has cleary gone in the direction of being a more moralist game. Doing a Knee in the face of a thrower requires far less skill then doing ETEG/Fuzzy in the same situation. Abare in general is nerfed hard (evade>attack, sabaki's vs throwattempts, protecting the thrower, nerfed P and 2p's etc). Abare is the way of the scrub, always have been. Even though VF5 has a whole lot more "open" situations it's clear as day the game towards a moralist approach i.e benefitting moralist defensive gameplay. That's clearly not in the n00bs best of interest.

 

What part of "I'm dropping the 14 frames to fuzzy guard, but here's why you guys are wrong about CD ~ launch" did you not understand? I'm pointing out inconsistencies in using delay throw, not advocating doing CD ~ launch all the time. Besides, if they realize all you're mixing up against fuzzy is mid, throw, and delay throw, CD launch will beat 2/3 of your options (for a LOT of damage, mind) and conventional fuzzy will beat the other 2/3. Pretty bad for supposed advantage.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they'll stand up in time to eat a delayed throw.</div></div>

Or they'll stand up for a few frames and then /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif you out of your delay throw, or ETEG, or .... Point is, once you've given up your advantage by delaying, lots of things can happen.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It wouldn't surprise me if you get counterhit if the opponent does something like a beatknuckle either</div></div>

What part of "don't bother whining about how the opponent would use a launcher" didn't you understand? Yes, there's lots of stuff that will beat CD ~ launch (low throw being the most consistent, and hey, it works agaist normal fuzzy too) - that's not the point.

Yeah, i already acknowledged that mid / same speed low is a reasonable mixup against fuzzy. Ducking lows have noticeably different animations than mids ( a visual clue to just keep ducking guard rather than standing up) and are almost universally unsafe on guard.

Uhm, because it'll beat 0frame delayed throws too, because they don't clash?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you could've used PK</div></div>
Vane can use PK? Orly? Anyone other than 10fr punchers cant use PK against cd at -5 . . . If you're talking about using PK as reverse nitaku, guess what - that WILL get you MC'ed 100% of the time, unlike a crouchdash . . .

 

Anyone using cd to fuzzy at -5 is stupid.

Or they'll stand up for a few frames and then /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif you out of your delay throw, or ETEG, or .... Point is, once you've given up your advantage by delaying, lots of things can happen.</div></div>Which is one step further and doesn't change point. And by doing low throws a lot of things can happen too. Point of the matter is still that delayed throws beats fuzzy better then anything else.

 

Jeez fucking christ in a handbag. Do you even read what you're saying? This whole thing started out about you saying delaythrows aren't good in fuzzyguard as opposed to crouchthrows and since then it's been about whatever you redefine yourself into saying in your next post. Now you're doing these very idiotic 2/3's comparisions to prove how great your CD attack is. So what, you go about doing crouchthrows in every advantage you have like +1 cause it's the pure counter and you won't get MC'd? This is so stupid so it's hard to even find where to begin.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Besides, if they realize all you're mixing up against fuzzy is mid, throw, and delay throw, CD launch will beat 2/3 of your options (for a LOT of damage, mind) and conventional fuzzy will beat the other 2/3. Pretty bad for supposed advantage.</div></div>

And if they really think you're just mixing up between crouchthrow, highthrow or mid they RN the fuck away for 2/3's and if they really... have you heard of this thing called nitaku and where it applies or doesnt? IT DOESNT APPLY HERE NOW DOES IT SON?

Besides; newsflash - if I think someone is going to fuzzyguard or RN I'll just mix between direct mid and delaythrow. Why the fuck would I put in direct throw in the mix?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, i already acknowledged that mid / same speed low is a reasonable mixup against fuzzy. </div></div>

Lol.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Uhm, because it'll beat 0frame delayed throws too, because they don't clash?</div></div>

Stop talking about beating 0frame throws once they accure. I.e when you press guard to cancel a crouchdash (called FUZZYGUARD you know) and someone throws you and they get a 0-frame throw THATS IT. You don't "beat" a 0-frame throw once it happens in any other way then doing the proper throwescape. If you don't understand that delaythrowing is much more powerful in VF5 then in VF4 cause of 0-frame throws I feel sorry for you. You DO understand that they are right?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Vane can use PK? Orly? Anyone other than 10fr punchers cant use PK against cd at -5 . . . If you're talking about using PK as reverse nitaku, guess what - that WILL get you MC'ed 100% of the time, unlike a crouchdash . . . </div></div>

Talk about totally missing the point. You're so deep in theoryland now arguing for things that you, and I can say this with 99.9% confidence, don't even use yourself in game or when playing with friends it's rediculus. Meanwhile delaythrowing is used everywhere, and by everyone who knows the game, daily.

 

Look, I'm going to say this one more time, and then I'm going to drop it for now, especially because this is all largely mooted by the fact that opponents can just straight up RUN AWAY from santaku in VF5:

1. If someone fuzzies sufficiently to beat a buffered high throw, buffered low throw will beat that fuzzy 100% consistently.

2. If someone fuzzies sufficiently to beat a buffered high throw, delay throw will not beat that fuzzy 100% consistently, for reasons already discussed.

As to whether delay throw is "better" or not because it has other advantages, I'm not going to get into that. My point begins and ends with the (undeniable) point that low throw is a more consistent counter to fuzzy than delay throw is, because the opponent cannot choose to be in 2 levels at the exact same frame (12th frame), whereas the whole point of delay throw is that it hits on a different frame from buffered high throw (not the 12th frame).

 

Again you're overestimating the effectiveness of backwalking and backdashing.