So what are your thoughts on VF5 now?

Yes it will, on the other hand, if the opponent does SOMETHING ELSE then obviously you need to predict it and punish accordingly. There is NOTHING random in the system. The game doesnt throw dice whether or not you will hit or not. Opponent just can play with timing if he wants to. Obviously that leads to different scenarios which arent fuzzy guard per se, but again, those scenarios arent random. After all, its not necessarily wise to do perfect fuzzy guard in every -6 situation as that leads to predictability..

Just because opponent can do multiple different options, that doesnt mean his behaviour is random, or are you saying that humans in general behave randomly? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif I just love threads like this sometimes.

 

Hey, he tried that shit 30min online. It works. Backdashing/backwalking and doing crouchdashes without guard when you're -6 is the bomb Yo.

Edit: And Vanessa has the best backwalk in the game!

 

Estimation has nothing to do with it. I'm stating a fact:

1. Vane /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is -5 on guard. This is (or should be) a santaku situation.
2. Moralist santaku in this case is a 3-choice between throw (to beat standing guard), low throw (to beat crouching guard), and elbow aka 14 frame mid (to beat abare).
3. Backwalk and backdash~evade (i.e. RUN AWAY) beats all three of those options, from either stance, no matter how deep the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif was, as long as it didn't push them into a wall.

Mileage may very per specific character & move (may need to do BD~E for moves that backwalk wont quite run away from), but it's very consistent against e.g. jeff. To be fair, this isn't just vane - jeff /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif are almost as bad @ -6, he just has slower backwalk speed, and slower abare tools so people can use bigger/longer-reaching mids against him.

Kiwe, are you still mad that my 30 minute Vane knew that 6K was CH only, despite you repeatedly attempting to school me about how (self-admittedly) little I knew about vanessa? Have I been rude to you in some way for you to repeatedly make fun and or misunderstand what are, for the most part, entirely factual points?

Are you saying you can delay exactly 10 frames 100% consistently? And yet you're making fun of me for saying there's a window between when you have to crouchdash and when you have to guard? C'mon now . . . .

 

Every (atleast that I can think of now) character in the game has certain moves with pushback / small recoveryframes / small active frames etc in the game from which is it possible to do similar stuff at maxrange. For instance Pai 6p > Backdash K (which would actually launch a throwattempt), Goh 46p>446p, Kage 2k+g>backdash whatever. Hell you can even backdash from maxrange Jeff p+k and do 466k against an elbow or a throw. Direct, short, ELBOW or a throw that is. But then again your arguing for (surprise surprise) Van's midkick now and how you can do it "no matter how deep" it is right?

Where do you get your logic from? I hate once again how you throw around the word 'fact' when it's not, it's your opinion mostly.

Says who?

14frame mid elbow @+5? Really?

Again with the fucking backwalk. Try it against Pai swallowkicks, Wolf screwhook or even your own character (lol consistent) Jeff's 6p (all 14f moves) and tell me it doesn't matter "how deep the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif was" again. Why are you doing short ranged elbows /attacks at -5 again? Specially against a move you know has pushback? Ah, to prove a point that isn't there of how it doesn't matter if it's maxrange or not and to vent Vane hate/ignorance, gotcha. In all of the above examples a simple fuzzyguard would've won against a direct throw / attack as is the case for basicly all the midkicks in VF that don't knock down. Midkicks in VF5 are in general safe. You don't define what's nitaku / santaku / should be a dangerous situation. The game does. If you don't like it, gtfo and play another game.

And don't you for a second pretend that you picked her midkick randomly - you picked it cause you thought it was the absolute best example of something you were trying to prove. It wasn't some sort of "medium" / "normal" situation at all even though you tried to play it of like that. But you were using it as some sort of generalization statement - which is, once again, another part of you I don't like when you write stuff like this. Hell, only about 1/3 of the cast even has crouchthrows.

Does your example apply to the majority of VF gameplay or majority of moves these characters have? Will you be able to backdash all moves? Is it unique for Vans sidekick to be able to backdash from at maxrange towards a short range mid / throw? Is backdashing guarded attacks something you can base your core gameplay around? Hell no. Is it something new either? Short elbows and lots of specialproperties shit / matchup dependent things have been around for AGES. But you state it as it is new and should be your main response @-5/6 and like there's no drawback in using it. And that's the problem I have with you KoD. Your fucking statements and the way you go about arguing them, it's as easy as that.

There's no such thing as Santaku, VF is now broken. You don't need fuzzyguard cause you can backdash from all situations in VF5. Delaythrows aren't a good option in beating fuzzyguarding. Van's broken, I don't play her or understand her - but I'm voicing my opinion anyways. 1p can be spammed multiple times, it works great, I used it online. You need a frame perfect elbow to beat it ffs. You can do 14f reactions in VF, I'll prove it when I get my stick done. Crouchdashing forward in highdissadvantange is great. More options lead to less guesses. VF5 is more scrubfriendly - Sega did that on purpose. This game is bad, all the revisions show this.

NO. Just stop already.

You're a fucking mod on this site - someone people should (be able) to listen to. Instead you say all sorts of crazy shit like this. MONU-FUCKING-MENTAL Statements. Nobody would give a shit if you said something like "Imo Jeff's catchthrow is good". I'd like for you to once, just once, admit you were erronous about something in your next post. Being able to backdash from attacks regardless of how deep a Van 3k is guarded would be a good start. The problem is that you make these huge statements and never ever back down a bit. Your precious VF is NOT broken, it's just different now. And actually a whole lot of people like the way it's different believe it or not. You need to stop seeing everything in black and white.

Two Questions for you:

1) Do people, top ranked people in japan and tourneys, in general use fuzzyguarding and ete or do they mostly backdash and do 33 no guard?

2) If so, why the hell are they doing just that?

I don't know about you but every major tourney and DVD I've watched etc VF5 defense is based around ETE and Fuzzy. Since you're clearly of a different opinion you might be able to point to other material i.e where the players don't use those measures. It would make for a good watching.

Has this thread derailed or is it still on topic?

Oh yeah, and finally:

Don't flatter yourself. I swear to god (and I'm religous) I never even looked at that thread and/or heard of what you're talking about after my last post until you just brought it up now. I just got fed up with the E-drama and you not listening. As did many others. The same is very close to happening here. I've explained now quite clearly why I have problems with what you're saying and if you want to take that in or not is your problem.

 

If you have problem with how to take advantage of +5 situations... maybe you should spend more time with the game? It's already established that it's not a real nitaku situation in VF5, and delayed throw is just one of the possible things you can do (something that might or might not be a good choice depending on your opponent), so why spend that much time analyzing it? It's like trying to talk about throwing at +1 is or is not a good thing to do.

I don't know why people think VF is a game where you should do this or that in this or that situation. It's alot of free formed than that I think, but you just have to weigh in the frames on what you are trying to achieve.

 

No, I cant, and 0-frame throw before opponent crouches isnt a reliable counter to fuzzy (one of the few things we seem to agree on). I never said it was. However, don't mistake lack of execution to randomness. Your own personal game might be random but the system isnt. I was talking about semantics.

However, delayed throw that catches opponent when they stand back up is a valid method for defeating Fuzzy guard. You seem to be under the unfortunately common misconception that it is possible to vary the timing of fuzzy guard. It is not. At -6 and -5 it is very monotonous technique. If you delay the timing you get something that isnt fuzzy guard (namely - simple crouch) which will lose simply to undelayed fast mids.

Not only is this false, but once again you fail to see my(and KiwEs) point. Nobody is forcing the opponent to use moralist santaku ONLY (never heard anyone use this term before now btw..), if you use something that beats it. Adapt and use something that works. We are fighting humans.

 

Yes well, backwalk after bone crush middle is good on paper but you end up eating lotsa catch throws - i swear, those Sarah players, the range on rolling face crush is absurd /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

Same goes for shadow slicers, people learn and do come up with ways to beat backwalk. Each time i eat a Kenka kick i'm like DUH!

I don't know about the other technical stuff you guys are discussing but, honestly, backwalk does seem a bit, well, shallow, as a defensive technique, even if you are supposed to have the best backwalk in the game.

That said, once my opponent fuzzies p > throw twice i switch to p > low throw, i don't bother with delayed throws - imho it's not worth giving up my momentum. I say, let the other guy guess.

 

I just noticed something funny about this "moralist santaku" deal...

Why is low throw listed as one of the choices when a fast mid is there as well? Fast mids at +5 will beat low crouch and any abare attempts.

Normally santaku involves some type of circular attack to beat ETEG iirc.

 

Against a character with 9 frame abare? Yes, really.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Try it against. . . Jeff's 6p (all 14f moves) and tell me it doesn't matter "how deep the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif was" again.</div></div>

I already did try it, set the jeff AI to throw or mid, backwalk and backdash evade works like a charm. Have you actually tried it?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) Do people, top ranked people in japan and tourneys, in general use fuzzyguarding and ete or do they mostly backdash and do 33 no guard?</div></div>

The good japanese players I've seen in person do a hell of a lot of (crouch)dashing back and forth and evade cancelling trying to bait whiffs, yes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Has this thread derailed or is it still on topic?</div></div>

As far as I can tell, it's still talking about changes in VF5's system that some people like and some others dont like.

Because if someone fuzzy guards sufficiently to beat fast mid and throw, low throw will beat that fuzzy 100% consistently (again, assuming they arent just running away). People used 3-taku to describe this even back in VF4 (look at hiro's jeff notes for instance).

I entirely see your point. It's the same as my point - the game isn't forcing you to use santaku, in fact it's encouraging you to use something other than santaku, because there are simple options that beat all of it; and yes, there's yet another set of options to beat that. You think this is a good thing, because it results in more options. I think this is a bad thing, because it results in lots of spacing rather than RPS, and more of what I perceive as "WTF why did that whiff" moments.

 

Jeff's elbow does whiff when /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif is guarded at point blank range and Vanessa backwalks. However, this is the exception, not the rule. Every other character's elbow hits.

Backwalking and backdash evade is only really effective when you connect with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif at range, preferably at the tip of her foot. And this is nothing new to VF5, it was easy to to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> box step in Evo as well.

 

We seem to have reached a stage where we have expressed our opinions sufficiently enough so I leave this at that. I will however point out from the above quote that its a hell of a lot different thing to bait something in neutral situation than try to backdash away from relatively large disadvantage.

 

Every other character's elbow is backdash~evadable; I already noted this in my post. Admittedly, there are a few characters whose throws will hit backdash~evade from closed if done after a point-blank /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (wtf do they have better throw range than jeff?).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Backwalking and backdash evade is only really effective when you connect with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif at range, preferably at the tip of her foot. And this is nothing new to VF5, it was easy to to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif -> box step in Evo as well. </div></div>

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif box step sure didn't work in vf4 if the dfK was anything like close range, though, cause she's gonna get thrown. Which is why I said throw speed was a big deal for the RUN-AWAY&trade; way back at the beginning of this thread.

Although come to think of it, hitboxes may be just as big of a contributor as throw speed. If you notice what happens when a throw whiffs after e.g. Jeff's elbow is guarded, it's almost like the grabbing animation goes right through the space below his outstretched arms; I don't remember ever seeing anything like that in VF4, throws just connected if they were in range.

Granted. However, it's the same system changes (throw speed changes / emphasis on spacing) at work in both cases.

 

Backdash evade has had a universal solution since Evo though, just jab. You can do the same thing against backwalkers.

 

Not too much more to say... KiwE really covered it all.

However, I think most people long since forgot the original reason I brought up delayed throws. Because not every character has a low throw. I agree with KoD that low throw is a cleaner way to beat fuzzy guard... but it doesn't matter, because it's not universal. Dealyed throw is universal, and is arguably the second best option for beating fuzzy guard. I don't understand why anyone is even talking about low throw in this thread... the fact that vane/jeff both have them (which seems to be KoDs only examples), does not make it a good example of VF5s overall system.

 

Here are my honest thoughts on VF5:

The game stinks in many ways compared to any other VF game. I am sure everyone's question is "then why do you play it?" Well it's quite simple... I LOVE VF! So no matter what I will probably support it until 1 of 2 things happens. 1) I die 2) I can't pick up a stick anymore...

When VF5 was released on PS3 I was so damn excited. Just weeks before it's release I dumped about $1,300 bucks down buying a PS3, new 1080P monitor, High Grade Arcade Stick, Japanese Import of VF, then the USA version shortly afterwards. The game was amazing to play for about the first month. Me and Denkai(Black Bauer CTU) would try to get together every day and play. But from day one I kept telling Denkai that there is something about this VF that I don't like. It seems to spam friendly and you can't force someone to guess half the time. Denkai subconsiously picked up on this and bases his entire game around it. VF was robbed of it's Nitkau game. According to Denkai, when all else fails just attack.... -9 so what fuck it... just attack! Why waste your time with applying defense when you can usually spam yourself out of a bad situation. My statements are not an attack on my fellow NYC sparring partner. I am just mainly pointing out a fact that he knows and understand a hell of a lot more than me. He will even admit that VF5 is broken and much easier to play/win when it's compared to VF4:EVO/FT.

Well after that first month, slowly but surely my PS3 started to turn on lesser and lesser until it eventually ceased. The flame was re-ignited though for the Xbox360 release mainly due to the fact that VF was finally going online. This is something that I have dream of since DOA4 was released. At the time I was even willing to accept the fact that the game would just be horrible online and totally unplayable, but I would still play it. Why? Like I said... I LOVE VF! Thankfully the developers at AM2 did something that everyone honestly thought could never be done. I am sure even they themselves thought it could not be done, but somehow we were given a version of VF with online play that is ALMOST flawless when played under a perfect connection.

My reasons for having a strong dislike to VF5 is due to how the system and mechanics of the game have changed just to cater to the "audience." VF has always been a game of learning, applying, studying, visualization, practice, to receive REWARDS. The majority of this is gone.

Let's look at in from this scenario. Say I wanted to become an accountant. I would have to enter a University or some sort of school where I would have to learn the skill or concept of what an accountant is/does.

Next I would then have to take what I have learned and apply it on many different levels in my life to improve.

In order to learn any skill or to improve you have to do some form of studying. This is the key to improving at any skill. You usually have to force the information you are trying to absorb into your brain until it becomes a part of your being. This is not so in VF5 in my opinion. I honestly feel there is no need to practice anything. I have not practiced anything in VF5 since that first well let's say 2 months of owning the PS3 version. If I do go to Dojo mode, it's mainly to practice Kage's uppercut combo so I can catch some noob with it online, since no one ever even tries to attempt it. Yea yea I know... LAG right? Whatever! Any way most of my practicing for VF5 comes from discussions. I can usually visualize the situation in my head and then come up with an answer fairly quickly. On a US level I find VF5 to be extremely easy, so my desire to practice is non existent. Also not having a recording mode only amplifies this.

Once my accounting skill improves or I feel it's good enough that I could use it in the work force. My next step would be to visualize where I would possible like to work or to what level of an accountant I want to be. This is no different than me dreaming since the VF3 days of wanting to be able to compete in Japan even if it was just one time in my life. Well luckily I made it happen. I got my ass handed to me, but I got the dream that I visualized. Which was to become a decent player with enough skill where I could at least get someone in Japan to nod there head and acknowledge that I am strong. Well I got more than I bargain for, because I was acknowledge by pretty much everyone who agreed that I could be much, much stronger if I played in Japan all the time. Well we all know the Japanese are very humble and could have been blowing smoke up my ass, but bottom line... I got the dream I visualized.

Now lets add everything up. I have learned the concept/skill of accounting. I study the materials needed to make the grade and graduate from the university to get my certification. Next I have visualized about where I want to go with this degree. The only thing left for me to do is continue to practice so I always improve to reap the rewards that lie ahead.

Well I am sorry to say I honestly feel that this feeling of going to VF school and graduating knowing that after all the hard work and time invested will finally pay off has vanished. I do not know who is to blame, but what Sega or AM2 did was shut down the University Of VF and built a large stadium where they could hold a large seminar. This is a quick run down of what the speaker at the seminar probably has to say; "Here at the seminar in return for dumping some yen into our machine we will grant you with a back door pass to bullshit so you can graduate from accounting school in no time flat." They then said, "sure you can study and practice if you want too. But why? We assure you, with the bullshit we can show you to cheat the very being of VF, you will never want to pick up another mook or watch youtube videos on how to improve. Why trouble yourself with working so hard, when we can make it very easy for you to succeed even if you have no skill or high level of competitiveness to win.... Thank you for putting money in our game and supporting us!"

 

I never played any of the previous games... ignorance is bliss /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

having played Tekken 3, SFIII:3s, and A2 somewhat seriously playing online and whatnot, VF5 takes the cake. Easily the best out of that lot for me, and whatever bs there is in VF, there is 10 times that in the other games.

 

Its not about the previous games, I played them too since VF2 (until evo all at arcade) and I dont feel at all like Konjou..

Konjou:
However.. saying VF5 is spam friendly is ..weird to say the least. Its much less spam-friendly than the previous versions..

 

In extension and contention to Konjou (still got that Alpha-ism radio interview of yours on my laptop btw):

I often wonder about the learning curve of VF5 since practically everything from VF4 can be brought over, a little expansion, and you've got a good game. I can look back on some great revelatory moments during my quarrels with VF4E when I figured stuff out, how to properly take advantage of evading, how fuzzy works, getting the timing of sabaki's down, the use of crouch dashes, etc, etc.

But now, with 5 that upward curve that I had with both VFR and VF4E (I skipped the lot in between) doesn't exist for me. But like KtotheG illustrates, this is probably because the changes between 4 and 5 are too small, we don't really have to go through that learning curve again because its the same set of skills we've been using all along. Those proud 'aha!' moments we've had before don't exist in VF5 if you've played VF4. Does this make it a worse game? I'd say no. It just makes it too familiar, not new, thus a bit dull or stale.

By making the controls of the game easier they've changed the beast, but not as to be inrecognizable. I've had many times in VF4E where I felt as if I were fighting the game itself, instead of the opponent. And that is something I really praise VF5 for. It is easier to play, but hasn't dumbed itself down to the level of DoA nor has it become 'imprecise' in the way its mechanics mesh like T and SC. It was incredibly easy to distinguish a beginner from a seasoned VF player before, that line has blurred, sadly.

But on the other hand because it has become harder to assert your superiority over others in VF5. And this is the meaning of a fighting game, to play and beat others. In the end this has made VF itself a harder game to truly master, as it's not about beating the game anymore, its about beating your opponents. And I welcome that change.

 

Hey guys,

A few things:

- Any time you guys get engaged in theory fighter, it's always a good idea to check the empirical evidence...do the top players do it?? Because if they don't, there's probably a good reason why.

- The VF5 system actually does make sense. I'm too tired to give a full dissertation but if you lay it all out, it really does. AM2 impressed me on this because it took me a long time to get it.

- That said, if I had to pick, I would still say I prefer VF4 over VF5 but I think it is for sentimental reasons. VF5 is undoubtedly deeper and more complex, but somehow, it does not "feel" as fun. But then again it might be because I am better relative to my competition in VF4 than VF5. When VF4 came out you heard many similar things from players who started with VF3, and similarly so for VF3 and VF2.

 

Jeff, I think that feeling of less fun is mostly from the fact that VF5 is not an revolutionary step in the series. It feels like VF4, with a few tweaks, but for the most part it's VF4. The expectation of a new VF is nothing like it was for the other releases. Every new VF besides this one had a new way of playing altogether - new ways of movement to discover, new properties and mechanics of the game, etc. VF5 doesn't have this and therefore needs to rely on other aspects to help satisfy the expectations of a new VF.

I didn't buy a PS3 and I only recently got my Xbox. The new thing that makes this VF worthwhile, so far, is online. And I think that's enough for me to be happy with a new VF.

edited to substitute evolutionary for revolutionary to better represent what i mean.