So what are your thoughts on VF5 now?

VF5 is better than VF4 for many reasons. I don't understand why it bothers people so much that the moves are a little easier to do. It's better that way, like it was said above, you can fight your opponent without fighting the game (execution wise).

VF5 is hardly noob friendly, as anyone knows how badly they pwn kyus online. I honestly believe that more people have just put more time into learning this game because you can play online. It gives players more motivation to get better because it's much easier to play a live opponent now, you don't have to leave your house and go to the arcade, you just go online.

I had VF4 and EVO but I never dedicated as much time to getting as good as I did in VF5 because I didn't have anyone to play. In VF5 I'm very motivated because I know the competition is out there and it's good. Being able to play other people has driven me to get better and practice and the ranking system alone makes me want to improve. If they added item battles to online it would seal the deal.

I think the people who have been playing VF a long time feel like there must be something wrong with the game because they can't beat on everyone like they used to. However, I don't think it's VF5 that is broken I think it is that the competition stiffer so people like Konjou and Denkai may feel like the game is noob friendly but I think they aren't giving other players enough credit.

Just because I'm not known in the VF5 circuit doesn't mean I don't play and practice a hell of a lot. If I wasn't getting better after playing that much I would be pissed. But I've noticed that everyone is getting MUCH better as time goes by and I think that is the main reason why some old-school players think the game is too easy. Just because I can compete doesn't mean the game is bad or easy, it just means that I practice a lot and have gotten better. I think some of the old-school guys need to give the rest of us a little more credit.

 

Being a psychotic VF2 fanatic, I have to say that VF5 is the only VF since VF2 that I really have taken to heart. This is coming from a fighting game "retiree." This game actually made me pick up a controller again. I stopped playing games around VF4 because I had way too much on my plate at the time and well it just wasn't as fun too me.

I can't put my finger on it (online) but I think that VF5 has something (ONLINE) that just stands out for me. (O-N-L-I-N-E)
Maybe it's because it's online? I don't know but I haven't had
fun the VF like this since VF2. (Because in VF2 days in my area there was competition ALL DAY, and the ONLINE experience while not perfect is as close as I'll get to the old days of the arcade. When MEN WERE MEN!)

Sorry if I can't get all technical with my reasoning.

 

I also disagree that VF5 doesn't reward knowledge and learning. I feel that VF5 actually does reward knowledge much more than VF4 due to all the character/situational unique details the game takes into account.

At the same time, like Llanfair said, this change is not as evolutionary as the previous step ups in the VF series; thus making it less fresh going from 4 to 5 than 3 to 4. The game, if I were to summarize, is somewhat slower and more methodical compared to 4, and it is a detrimental change for those who enjoyed the fast pace and quick forced decisioned gameplay of VF4. I wouldn't necessarily call it noob friendly, but I would rather say VF5 take into account more variables (not necessarily a good thing) than its predecessor; and oftentimes making the game feel more random since there are much more possible seeminly chanced outcomes (but adhering to the system).

For those who played alot of VF4, it really is just more of the same, with minor adjustments. It's easy to see why the motivation is just not there, and the level of enjoyment not as fulfilling. To say that the game is noob friendly, however, is a bit too harsh. It's hard for me to see this nor have I seen this phenomenon in the arcades against stiff competition.

 

I agree mostly with what konjou has said, but I still play out of a love for vf and fun, the more I've played and seen of the game so far tend to lean towards 5 being inferior as a fighting game compared to evo and final tuned.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To say that the game is noob friendly, however, is a bit too harsh.</div></div>

I would say the gap between "noobs" and intermidiate to higher but not top level plaeyrs (which most of us are) has narrowed, of course the top top elite level player doesn't have to worry cause they can spend enough time playing, studying, applying to overcome these differences,
like konjou mentioned earlier it's like all the work previous put in can at times seem like it counted for nothing at our level.
Our level meaning western vf players (non competitive arcade scenes), as far as I know only Yosuke who posts here is top top level.

 

<span style='font-size: 20pt'>OBJECTION!</span> I see a contradiction. (I love Phoenix Wright games)

Some moves are easier to do or have simplified versions. I'm sure you even mentioned in an Akira thread that you had problems performing Akira's true DLC combo.

Performing and perfecting the DLC in combos in past games took work and some felt rewarded in the time and effort it took to achieve that. In VF5, the true DLC is still there but now you can do the easier version for 20 pts less. Isn't that noob friendly? I can name other examples but I hope you get the idea. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the people who have been playing VF a long time feel like there must be something wrong with the game because they can't beat on everyone like they used to. However, I don't think it's VF5 that is broken I think it is that the competition stiffer so people like Konjou and Denkai may feel like the game is noob friendly but I think they aren't giving other players enough credit.</div></div>
You are missing the point. The OP, Konjou and many others had these thoughts before this game went online. They simply don't like the "feel" of the game and the new changes in the system regardless of who is playing be it someone new or old.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because I'm not known in the VF5 circuit doesn't mean I don't play and practice a hell of a lot. If I wasn't getting better after playing that much I would be pissed. But I've noticed that everyone is getting MUCH better as time goes by and I think that is the main reason why some old-school players think the game is too easy. Just because I can compete doesn't mean the game is bad or easy, it just means that I practice a lot and have gotten better. I think some of the old-school guys need to give the rest of us a little more credit.</div></div>
I don't think any VF veteran doesn't like the attention that new players have given to VF5. We have been waiting for people to embrace VF for the great game that it is for YEARS! Its not a ego thing.

You admitted you did not focus much on VF4 or previous VF's so you can't really compare which game(s) is better gameplay wise. If you spent the time that vets have in the older games then I think you might have a better understanding of how they feel. In regards to the Street Fighter 3 series, I liked Second Impact(2i) more than I did Third Strike(3s). I actually think 3s is a better game overall but I still prefer playing 2i because I had more fun with it. This is the case the VF5 naysayers are bringing up in a sense.

I hope you continue to play and practice hard in this game and that sometime in the future we would square off in person and you show me how much your effort and passion will result. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif If you are as hardcore as you presume to be I'm sure it will happen.


My personal opinion on this subject: I'm enjoying VF5 more than Evo/FT because Goh doesn't suck anymore. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif

 

My point about VF4 was not that I didn't play it a lot because I did, but the actual drive to get much better, so I could beat live opponents, just wasn't there because it was hard to find other people to play. With VF5 being ONLINE everyone is able to keep their game much sharper because there's more people out there to play and get good practice against. That is also motivation to get better in itself, that's what I meant. ONLINE has just changed the playing field entirely.

And with the DLC, yes there is a nerfed version that anyone can use but the "real" DLC is still there and you get the extra damage payoff if you can master it. It's not like there is no reason to learn the real DLC, there is, it's the extra damage and wow factor you get when you can do it.

 

Did I mention that I liked the fact that it was online?

 

VF has been my favourite game since I came across VF1 in '93. Every console I owned from the Saturn up was bought with the main purpose of playing VF. But when the PS3 came out at $600 I had to stop and think. It took me a lot of determination to deprive myself from playing VF5 but in the end two things made me decide not to get it:

- Price (WTF were Sony thinking?)
- No Online. (I had already gotten bored of playing VF4Evo against the CPU. This game is meant to be played against human opponents)

So no question I'm loving it now on the Xbox! (which, again, I bought only because of VF).

 

I agree. Moves differences like the "weaker DLC" or the difference between Giant Swing and Giant Swing (fastest input) are GREAT ideas from Sega. I switched to joysticks only recently, so "handwise" I have a lot to catch up with. The fact that I could perform the weak DLC after a month of playing is a good thing. It means I can get a little bit of reward for my little knowledge and I can feel motivated to go further because I have something already. If the only DLC available was the hard one, I would have tried that for a week or so and then given up.
Well done on that Sega.

 

Exactly Franz! That is exactly what I meant! It's like having a nerfed version drives you to do the real one even more. It gives people a chance to do the move and be competitive even if they can't get the real DLC down. The giant swing is another very good example of that. Having easier-to-execute versions of moves adds to the game, it doesn't take anything away from it though, just gives you more options which is ALWAYS good.

 

priceless...

i feel the same about wolf. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Reading Konjou's post, I got a different vibe from what a lot of people here are saying. That is, it sounds like the problem is with the general quality of VF players in the US. He doesn't feel a push to get better, because, not being able to play in Japan, he's essentially at the top, or near enough to count. And gernsburg is probably right, that'll sort itself out if VF5 stays this popular, and western players start actually getting better.

And to Shag... you're mixing two seperate issues. Making command input easier, and making the gameplay system "noob-friendly", do not go hand in hand. The issue when playing the game is knowing when and how to use DLC most effectively to deal damage. Mastering the input for DLC is basically just a wall barring you from playing the actual game. Command difficulty does not add depth. All it does is widen the gap between newer players and "elite" players, which is what people are trying to say.

I do have to agree with Manji, though... everything about VF5 seems to reward playing less abare than VF4 did, and we've spelled out most of those differences in this thread with no real solid objections. So I still don't understand what Konjou/Denkai/OptiUK are trying to say?

 

I may feel VF5 isn't as good but that doesn't take away from overall quality of the game. It is still a great game and they may of simplified a few things but the overall game quality is still very high and is something beyond what is considered noob friendly. A noob player will still struggle and can't simple mash and win like many people do in Tekken or SF. That basic concept remains unchanged what makes VF5 that much worse really I can't see anything that bad in VF5 compared to VF4 overall and I am a seasoned VF veteran that began by playing back when VF2 in the arcade.

Playing online only makes the fine parts of the game that much more obvious since the competition is so much tighter even if one is top notch. The changes of game mechanics only enhance it even more, VF5 is a more offensive game overall than VF4 that doesn't make that much of a difference really overall.

 

Llan, I don't know how you define "evolutionary" but I promise you that VF5 is a wholly different game than VF4. You can NOT play the same way in both games and expect to be successful at an elite level.

I personally think the reason I don't enjoy VF5 as much is because I'm just not as good in VF5 as I was in VF4, which is to be expected since I just don't have the time to play VF any more. However, from an objective point of view, VF5 is deeper, more complex, and more rewarding if you "get it." While I can recognize great game design, I don't always appreciate it as a player. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

I feel the same about Sarah.. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

VF5 plugged up a lot of holes in different characters movelists..

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Llan, I don't know how you define "evolutionary" but I promise you that VF5 is a wholly different game than VF4. You can NOT play the same way in both games and expect to be successful at an elite level.</div></div>

Ok, let me break it down for you.

VF1 -> VF2: Graphics were enhanced greatly. Movelists were expanded greatly. Gameplay mechanics were updated and changed and it was a whole new game.

VF2 -> VF3: Huge changes graphically. Undulation in rings. The E-button. Mechanics of gameplay were new (e.g. throw escapes beyond a simple P+G). This game was vastly different than VF2.

VF3 -> VF4: Changes to graphics (better? I dunno, that's a matter of opinion, but it certainly looked different). Gameplay mechanics changed a lot. E-button removed, Tech rolling introduced, dodging changed, etc etc. Movelists were changed quite a bit. Again, this game was vastly different than VF3.

VF4 -> VF5: Graphics polished, but characters look the same, just in higher res. Dodging is the same. Combos are virtually the same - sure there are some new ones, but it's the same template to work with. Yes, OM is new, and the 12 frame throw mechanics are new, and I'm sure some other minor things are new, but it's still the same template. It certainly is not some "omg, this is such a NEW game!" feeling, that's for sure. Do I need to tweak my game to accomodate the new bits and bobs? Yep. But it's nothing like the changes we all went through to adapt in earlier VFs.

Jeff you can promise me all you like, but if you think VF5 from VF4 is anywhere near the changes seen from 1-2, 2-3, and 3-4, then you need to lay off the crack.

 

Well, I don't have anywhere near the experience of most of you guys when it comes to VF but to me, VF5 just "feels" better to play. Hey, just my two cents. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

I personally would love to see <s>an</s> Ice-9's explanation of how VF5's system changes resulted in a deeper, more rewarding, great game design compared to VF4 (more complex, sure, but that's not the same thing). Totally serious, no sarcasm intended.

 

I think it's been covered if you reread everything, but I'll try and sum up, KoD:

In VF5, there is less "free" damage. The existence of more safe strings, and less guaranteed throws, means it is less viable to turtle and only attack during guaranteed situations, and expect to deal enough damage to be able to win. Second, it means people who have been put at disadvantage have more options, such as the better fuzzy guard that you've been complaining about, making it easier to make comebacks. And most importantly, it means that the game relies more on successful mind games than it does on knowledge of game mechanics. Even simple followup attacks from an advantaged position now include guessing game opportunities more complex than the old-style nitaku.

This makes it deeper and more fun, because both players now need a deeper understanding of all the possible responses that can be used at all the varying amounts of frames of disadvantage, in order to fully understand those guessing games, and move onto to actually attempting to make correct guesses, which is where the real elite-level gameplay tends to lie.

 

Maybe I'm just a n00b speaking out of turn, but . . .

Wouldn't a greater guessing game make the game less skill based? For example, one of the reasons I could never take the Dead or Alive series seriously was that the majority of the fighting system felt like rock-paper-scissors with no substantial reward for learning the game system. No matter how much you practiced learning about advantage and practiced setups, it all came down to whether or not your opponent executed a throw, attack, or reversal at the right time. Whereas in Virtua Fighter, it was a lot more possible to use strategy to set up a situation where your opponent's options were severely limited, which is the entire point of knowing frame data.

Therefore, it seems to me that you've kind of counteracted your argument. Mind games have their place in the system, but if it's the most prevalent part of the game, then you sacrifice knowledge and experience to luck.