So what are your thoughts on VF5 now?

Well, remember that a fighting game, in essence, is rock-paper-scissors with unequal risk/reward. I could go into a long, long explanation of why it works, but just go read this link:

http://www.sirlin.net/archive/yomi-layer-3-knowing-mind-of-the-opponent/

The game doesn't become less skill based, it just emphasizes different skills. That is, execution, and frame knowledge become less important. Yomi, conditioning, and proper valuation become more important.

And, the most important point of all... I disagree that the game has suddenly made this change. I would, in fact, argue that, as the article says, the mind games were always present, and were always the more important skill to learn, especially at the highest levels of play. The only thing that has really changed, is that those mind games are more obvious and excessible without having mastered the highest levels of execution.

 

Halle-fuckin-lujah! You get the game theory seal of approval!

More options != more better.

 

I think this game is too user friendly.
I think this game has been dumb down.
I think i miss fighter's Megamix.
I think the Ranking System is overated and Wrong.
I think this game is no longer a chess match but checkers.
I think it Sega Mess up turning this in a grappler's paradise making Wolf a Monster in the process lol!
I think That weight/juggle system really should have been gone.
I think its unfair little characters get their ass beat longer and it can't be the other way around(thats the reasonable side of me talking again.)
I Think that Goh,Jacky,LeiFei,Akira,Kage,Lau hould have the same pop up height as the women. I get boring not being able to pull of cool combo's on them.

 

Why?

A fighting game is in essence, a guessing game. From neutral frames, standing position, the most basic element of gameplay is attacks beats throw, block beats attack, throw beats block. Obviously, VFs sytem is somewhat more complicated, but it's all built to emphasize the need for yomi in order to win, the same way it's used in that intial RPS style example.

All the new options do, is emphasize the importance of yomi more than ever. Again, this was always true before, it was just less obvious until both players completed mastered complex techniques like ETEG... in the older games a single correct guess restricted your opponent's further, which actually sounds to me like it was easier to get "lucky" and win before... this is why manji and I keep saying abare play used to be more common. All you needed was that one correct guess, and then the restricted options your opponent had from nitaku made continuing to deal damage fairly simple. Now, if you can't correctly and continuously apply yomi to continue dealing damage, then there's little chance you will succeed in dealing additional damage even once you've gotten advantage.

 

Game A:

Every round, both players pick a number between 1 and 3.
If the players pick different numbers, 1 beats 2, 2 beats 3, and 3 beats 1.
Guessing correctly gives a player a number of points equal to the number he chose (3 points for 3, 2 for 2, 1 for 1).
If a player won the last round, he wins points for picking the same number as the opponent; otherwise picking the same number is neutral.
First player to get more than 10 points wins the game.

Game B:

Every round, both players pick a number between 1 and 1000 ( more options is better, right? )
If the players pick different numbers, the higher number wins, giving the player that many points, unless its last digit is equal to the first digit of the number the other player chose, in which case the player loses a number of points equal to the number he chose, and the other player gets 33 times the number he chose, unless it's sunday, in which case everything is multiplied by seven, unless it's the last sunday of the month, in which case picking 777 beats everything except 333.
Picking the same number is neutral, unless you picked a prime number, in which case player 1 wins the game instantly.
First player to get exactly -9999 points wins.

Which game is easier to understand? Which game is easier to explain to a new player? Which game is easier to determine optimal strategies for? Which game makes you feel like you are more in control of your choices?

Which game would you rather play?

 

To backtrack on what Sorias said.
your telling me that even if i did guess correctly im still wrong?
You sayin that Sega wanted to Eliminate guessing period?
How can they do that? That mean that Lau PPPK Should'nt be able to have alternates ending then. Then again this could be true cause also notice that in VF5 there is'nt a lot of alternates on moves but only on start ups attacks.

OW well that proves my theory.

I think this game is too user friendly.
I think this game has been dumb down.

 

So you're saying defensive techniques like ETEG, Fuzzyguard, TEG, Delayed rising, Sabaki's, Reversals, Boxstep, ECD, Inashis, Evasive moves, catchthrows, evadeattacks, should be removed so VF goes back to stoneage to make the game more enjoyable? What about removing ring positioning, ring out combos, wallcombos, stances, OM and every other thing that's of importance since the old guard>attack>throw>guard game was removed, say, 10 years ago?

No thanks, don't want your game. I'd rather play IK+.

Lau's PPPK didn't have alternative ending mixups even in VF4 etc. You guard the low variant on reaction - it's not a guessinggame.

 

Wow, KoD... wth are you talking about? You want to try coming up with a worthwhile analogy there?

The correct answer is I wouldn't play either game you mentioned, they both sound fairly boring. That said, VF is extremely similar to the first example, but rather than having 3 options, characters have 150+ options (I think Eileen has about that many moves, as the least in the game?) VF is also harder to explain to a new player than either of your examples, and harder to determine optimal strategies for.

Also, you're second example is a lot simpler than you seem to think. You're really only looking at 10 options, the only important rule is winning based on the first number/last number issue. And picking 9 first (900+), is worth way more points than anything else (note: it's impossible to lose points by picking 1000, since your rules don't specify numbers need 4 digits... that is, I assume you pick "1" not "0001") That said, picking high arbitrarily is bad, since you gain points, when you want to lose them. And losing is even worse, since you get 33x times the point gain, which appears to make a comeback almost impossible. The only viable strategy I see is to always pick "999". The game can never possibly end without you winning, since your opponent has no possible way to lose points in that situation. Every match will therefore end in a draw... kinda like tac-tic-toe... real deep game you came up with. (The only exception is on the last sunday of the month, where the game degenerates to 3 options, "777", "333" and "Everything else", at which point you're basically looking at your first example, with slightly different point values)

Actually, it's not "Everything else"... it's "993", as the best available counter to 333, and then 999 is once again the best counter to 993, leaving 4 possible options. And even after that it's still more degenerate than any other 4 option yomi game I know enough, since the "gain 33x a losing number" rule will almost certainly add points so quickly as still make it impossible for anyone to ever win.

 

Sorias, you're missing something that actually makes your example look bad. Eileen doesn't always have those 150 options. The essence of what KingZeal said, and what KoD agreed to is that you should have a game where there are ways that you can severely limit your opponents options and that is what makes a good fighter. VF does have this. VF is also heavily based on frames. The top players (talking about Japan) to even the high average know all of the frames. They also know how to exploit them and vary what they do with them, dependent on their opponent and the situation. THIS is where the mind games come in. You could have a standard nitaku situation, but you may "know" that your opponent is going to evade, so you do a delayed attack. This was not written on paper, and it violates the frames, but it is your exploitation of the fact that you know that you BOTH know the frames.

The top players in Japan are still FAR FAR FAR beyond our top players in the states (I was talking to LA Akira yesterday, and he was saying that even at his skill level, which is VERY good, imo, there are about 2000 players at his skill level, and there is a ways to go to the top top players). What I think VF5 did was open the doors to allow players to have even more complex mindgames, in hopes of seeing more "ZOMG, WTF DID HE JUST DO THAT?!?!11?!" moments. The options are still limited, but with a greater understanding of your opponent and their thought patterns, it can allow for new, and more interesting situations that while still heavily BASED on the frames (I don't think these are ever disregarded - LA was telling me, he will regularly fuzzy after being hit by a standing p on normal, just for safety, and this is something most people do in Japan - Yosuke is also known to fuzzy every possible fuzzyable situation... something like this is only possible when you know all of your and your opponents' adv./disadv.), the mind games can allow for situations surpassing what you just see on paper.

My method of going about the game was primarily first to build my guaranteed situations around the frames. This is the fastest way to get up on a game, and pickup "average to good" player skill relatively quickly. This is knowing when to take your guaranteed damage, recognizing moves, to know where you can duck things on reaction to get more guaranteed damage etc. The next level, and the more interesting one in VF is the mind games in HLP. Konjou really impressed me with his use of delayed attack, and mixup between doing things "by the book", then completely breaking the mold to mess with expectations. Playing Denkai yesterday (who beasted me beyond belief of what I thought was possible of me being beasted) forced me to have to try to move in the same direction even to try one win. The mindgames of some of these players is so strong that it can just keep you pinned again and again. Then I started trying some of those techniques myself - delaying attacks, delaying throws, and as against him was the first time really that I had to delve that deep, it just was like a new world opening up for where things can go.

It is really almost scary for me to think of the level that people go into with the depth of thought in these things. On paper, it looks like you may be sacrificing damage and being risky by neglecting to take the immediate opportunity to attack or other exploits of the system with it's new options, but it is clear that there is a really high level of thinking going on that is very consistent. LA Akira described the best people in Japan as the ones that can IMMEDIATELY recognize someone's playstyle, and quickly employ their anti-strats for it, as a result of them playing hundreds of different playstyles on a weekly basis.

So in essence what I would say is that VF5 has found a fine balancing of BOTH the traditional aspects of limiting your opponents options, which makes the average to good easily dominate the beginners, then it has the flexibility of amazing mindgames, which lets the top easily dominate the average to good. I don't know anything more I can ask for in a fighter. Best fighter I've ever played. =)

 

1) My Eileen = 150 move comment was a specific response to KoDs silly 3-move game example, I wasn't trying to say anything deeper with that.

2) Bravo, DubC, you said almost everything I've been trying to say much better than I managed to.

 

Actually, the way to "win" the degenerate game I made up is probably to PICK THE RIGHT CHARACTER (player 1) and TURTLE LIKE HELL USING SAFE MOVES (only choose prime numbers, never with the same last digit as the difference between the other player's score and -9999).

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

Yes please.

 

Hey Llan, sure, I agree that the difference between VF4 -> VF5 isn't as large as previous transitions. But that was never my argument was it?

In your post (see below), you stated that VF5 didn't have "new ways of movement...properties and mechanics." That, coupled with your typo that you thought VF5 failed to provide an "evolutionary" step naturally made it seem that you thought VF5 was the same game as VF4.

Which, of course, is blatantly untrue. VF5 does have new movements, properties and mechanics, and they do fundamentally change the way VF is played. To think otherwise is...well, smoking crack.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Every new VF besides this one had a new way of playing altogether - new ways of movement to discover, new properties and mechanics of the game, etc. VF5 doesn't have this and therefore needs to rely on other aspects to help satisfy the expectations of a new VF.</div></div>

KoD, I had started writing why I thought VF5's system made sense, then I realized to do so adequately would require a long and well thought out post. Moreover, as is the nature of fighting game forums, I will then have to continuously clarify and defend the content in my initial post, and probably get into one or two senseless arguments. Add it all up and it's simply too much time to commit given that I barely even play the game these days.

 

(to KoD school and students) I don't know, I used to think that you should play the game (VF4/5) using safe moves...and I used to think playing against top JP players is difficult because they know how to play using safe moves.

but I've learned now after constant arcade experience that there is no such thing as a safe move.

Thinking that way and trying to play the game that way will get you no where. There is no such thing as "limit what your opponent can do."

VF is pretty simple, you either do mid or you throw. Especially in VF5, even more moves you can get away with making an incorrect guess. If you think the game is based on safe moves, I will say that you are too scared to do anything in the game. This is why people turtle, this is why people don't throw.

If you want to get to a higher level of play, the first thing to do is to do more forward dash, do more throws even when you only have +4 or +5, do more holding G to guard instead of trying to ETEG everything, and start attacking at times when you normally don't.

So what if people can fuzzy? That doesn't mean your mid/throw game is thrown out the window. That's like saying because there is ETEG, you shouldn't do mid nor throw in VF. If you can't get over this mental obstacle, you will just eventually believe EVERY move in the game is safe. You will never find an opportunity to attack, never go on the offense, and never win against someone that's better, who actually is just someone that does everything that you are too scared to do.

 

Why don't you go play rock-paper-scissors with your friends since obviously its better game than VF.

 

From my perspective, having been playing since VF1, the biggest difference in 5 is exactly what Srider said. There ARE no safe moves anymore. Every time I think I have found some, I try using them on anyone above Master (for example) and get my ass beaten. This initially turned me off to VF5 because I was kind of used to knowing what was safe and what wasn't, and acting accordingly.

The progression has been towards eliminating all "safe moves," so there is no longer any refuge for the people who play robotically or exploit weaknesses in the game system. The key to VF1 for me was causing the whiff of a kick or throw, (yes I know there was no real throw whiff animation) and using my strongest throw. That was "safe." Next thing you know, there are throw reversals. Safe move eliminated. Then evade was thrown in, eliminating several more safe moves. Sabaki takes that even further. Pokers beware. Looking at Pai's movelist, I see a hint of foreshadowing of reversal-reversals for VF6. That will further level the playing field against Aois and Pais and Akiras, and strengthen sabaki's role. Don't complain about a broadened guessing game. USE the guessing game. Struggle to be the one in control of the guessing game. IMHO, that is.

So people see that now their old shit isn't working, and they cry that VF has been worsened somehow. I was one of them, if you look at my early posts in the "Vanessa is cheesy" thread. Well here I am now, months later, and I have shut up and learned how to play this game. Vanessa is not cheesy. I was wrong. Lei is only a LITTLE cheesy. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif (translation: I have to overcome) I am not great but have hit master about 5 or 6 times, and will have to keep improving if I want to go past that. I still lose to some mid dans and beat some higher named ranks. I am no longer noob-friendly, so VF must not be either, in general.

Any noob-friendlines is only at the lowest levels. That's good; maybe we'll have more people to play against now. However, No noob can cheese with Lei up to master, despite everyone's complaints. Maybe when I was 4th and 5th dan, noobs would be able to unknowingly exploit MY weaknesses with captain shaolin and take matches on me, making me think VF5 was poop. Guess what? In real fighting, if you're mediocre, anyone strong and relentless stands a puncher's chance against you. It's just realism.

As a rule, the most talented players (not me) praise VF5, so that should indicate something to us right off the bat.

"...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong."
-Dennis Miller

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thinking that way and trying to play the game that way will get you no where. There is no such thing as "limit what your opponent can do."</div></div>

This sounds fundamentally false to the concept of a fighting game which is based on frames and advantage. VF may be a game with tons of options for dealing with specific situations, but the entire point of practicing setups and studying frame data is to figure out how to keep your options while taking away your opponent's.

For example, at the start of the round, you suspect your opponent's going to do a move which is 22f to execute. In kind, you perform a move which takes 19 to execute, and you score a MC and gain a nifty 10f advantage. At this point, you have taken options AWAY from your opponent. At -10f, he can no longer duck any move (or throw) that's less than 16 frames. He can't perform a 10f jab and expect it to beat out anything faster than 20 frames. At this point, your opponent has to try and guess about what you're going to do and play defensively. While he still has many options, he has considerably less so than he did when the match was still neutral. That's my point.

 

I appreciate the advice (seriously) but I'm certainly not too scared to do anything in the game. I do big mids and throw all the time; I'm just tired of e.g. seeing my throws whiff at point-blank range because character X happens to stand with his arms in a particular way.

For anyone who's hung up on my game A (rock paper scissors) vs game B (the Marvel vs Capcom school of throw-some-shit-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks): yes its a stupid example, but it's pretty clear proof that adding options does not necessarily make for a better game.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> At this point, you have taken options AWAY from your opponent.</div></div>

Maybe rather than use the word "limit" you should use the word "change." What you speak of simply changes the opponent's options. There arguably is the same number of options for the opponent in your example; just different ones. You are simply changing the subset of moves he has to choose from. If you're an evader, circulars are his options. If you're a blocker, throws and low/mid are his options. If you're a relentless attacker, reversals, evades and sabakis are his options, and so on. If you mix all that up, he now has to read you correctly or beat you to the punch. Unless you stand there and don't block, your opponent is always "limited" to a subset of moves: those that will work.