Tekken 6: Bloodline Rebellion

I find it odd that you get upset that people call the item moves a gimmick, yet you state they won't have any real practical uses.

 

No, they call the gameplay and the entire game gimmicky, when in fact item moves affect the gameplay about as much as customisations, custom intros and item winposes affects VF gameplay.

Item moves don't affect gameplay, so why not discuss the actual game instead?

 

Ok. I can understand where you're coming from. Cheers.

 

You sir, get props from me (if that means anything lol), for handling an online discussion like that.

 

Mainstreet Ryu 2nd, easily comparable to Koedo in terms of knowledge, execution and overall skill?
While I won't argue this with you bc there is no accurate way to determine this, I will say that that remark showcases the same kind of talk that you are speaking against.
How can you know if both these players are/aren't "easily comparable" in all of the aspects you mentioned? You can't, nobody can.
BUT one thing I can compare is the amount of defensive options that VF has over Tekken.
Movement and defense wise: VF wins and everybody knows it. You've got crouch-dashing; jumping; OM and DM. You can input throw escapes while DM'ing and not have moves come out.
These are just the things that Tekken doesn't have, VF has all of the movement that Tekken has and even does it better.

I won't get too much into offense bc (on average) Tekken characters have more moves than VF characters but not all of those moves are very useful or even used at all anyway... but I'm not a pro, so maybe offensive wise, Tekken kicks VF's ass, Idk.
I play Tekken and I've watched Tekken being played at high levels and I know that the level of things that you have to learn in VF, from a defensive point of view, outweigh the defensive tactics and options in Tekken.

So, no, VF is not better than Tekken nor is a top VF player better than a Tekken player but to say that they're on the same level just from watching them play their games perspectively is a bit bogus.
It's almost like any sporst game, you have to learn a lot more plays, rules and be more active in certain sports but to say that Barry Bonds in his prime is easily comparable to Michael Jordan in his prime... well, it's just not true.
They're both good at what they do but one game requires more effort than the other.

And about the "non existant" throw system, here's what I wrote:
"The throw system almost non-existent since you can see throws coming AND most throws are too easy to get out of."
Keywords there are "ALMOST non-existent" and "MOST throws are too easy to get out of".

 

Thanks, but to be fair I was sort of an ass earlier. So it ends in a wash /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Rather than just quote people, I'll just address people by name.

Though I love Virtua Fighter more, I'm an avid Tekken player and generally play it more because that's what most of my friends around here play. I've always been in love with both series though.

Quash, I must LAUGH at your Lili statement. The fact is this. In DR, no one has "re" launcher moves. If you get launched after someone finishes a combo on you, then you probably did something stupid for that to happen. And the only launcher of Lili's that's stupid is her d+3+4. You know, the thing where she does a handstand kick that launches you high in the air. That move crushes a heck of a lot of moves, HOWEVER, that is her most UNSAFE launcher. She's at -18 on block. Most people have 15 frame launchers that are used to punish. Unless you're Lee that has a 14 frame launching punisher, or Bryan and Heihachi who have 13 frame launcher punishers.

Tony, safe launchers are a problem. If you're going to be able to launch someone for more than 60 points of damage (Tekken life bar is 150), then there needs to be risk in using such launchers. Example, Bryan's uf+4 heel kick launcher is only -4 on block. uf+4, db+2, d+3,2 f+1, ff+2 = 65 pts damage. That's too much damage for a regular combo. And that's not even on counter hit. That same combo is 69 pts on counter hit.

Now I wouldn't say the throw escape system is "non" existant or even almost non existant. It is true that you can see throws coming, but seeing a throw coming and the way you react to it are different. Some people are able to break it based on the initial animation of the throw, but most of the time in this case, unless you can notice it immediately, you're already thrown. And some people are good enough to see the hands as they are extended. And throws are based on hand positions and what button the throw was executed with. And for the most part, if the throw used one punch button, then it will be broken with 1 button. If the throw was executed with both punch buttons, then it will be broken with both punch buttons. There are exceptions though. Julia's mad axes is d,db,b,f+2 and is broken with both punch buttons. With right throws, you see the right hand extended out more, so you break with 2. With left throws, you see the left hand extended out more, so you break with 1. If you see both hands extended, break with 1+2. And putting more throws with 2 button breaks wouldn't make sense unless you're initially grabbing with both hands. You'd just confuse people with throw breaking by trying that out. Tekken's throw system is good for Tekken. You only get one chance to break the throw. But it's fair considering that you have indications as to what type of throw it is. The only thing I would change about the throw system is the fact that you can get thrown out of moves. I don't care what game you play, everyone knows that if you attack, you should not be able to be thrown out of it, unless you are performing a counter or parry. But for the throw to just totally override the attack is stupid.

As far as Tekken not being a serious fighter, I would have to also disagree with that. But first, let me define what I mean by serious. When I say serious, I refer to the competitive scene. The people who take time to travel to play this game in tournaments for cash prizes. If you compare the number of tournaments held between Tekken and Virtua Fighter in the US, which game are there generally more tournaments for? Which game has larger turnouts? Which game is constantly held at Evolution every single year and has very large turnouts? Which game are more people willing to travel to play? Tekken is taken very seriously here in the US more than VF. And not only here, in South Korea as well. And with the inception of T5R, Japan has started playing Tekken more now than in times past.

I think this post is long enough. Plus I'm getting hungry. TO WENDY'S I GO!!! /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Eh,...no. Hey Tony, didn't you say in another thread that you would stop doing these comparisions between Tekken and VF cause you didn't understand Tekken enough - what happened?

You can't compare VF and Tekken options on defense cause they are different games. Tekkens defense is based around reaction. VF's around buffering. At first when you start playing Tekken you duck a lot more then you should cause you're used to that from VF.

A good tekkenplayer will mostly guard and be prepared to throwbreak if a throw comes (which you can see what break it is based on hand position) and be prepared to progg guard if a low comes and/or parry that. Of course there are variations where you SS jabs or SW (have you ever done that when playing tekken in your life Tony honestly?). Is all of this easy to do? No. It's hella hard. Really really hard QETEG style hard. Sometimes it's actually depressing to think about cause it feels like certain elements outside your own control (reactionspeed, muscle memory etc) will determine how good you will become at it. I've never felt in VF certain things are outside my reach executionwise the same way I feel it to be true in Tekken... and that's what some people love about the game. That infinite top level.

That being said, defense wise, you wouldn't be able to TOUCH a great tekkenplayer who's well above your level while you can do so in VF5 if you understand nitaku and basic delays as it's somewhat more direct guessing games. "Nobody escapes nitaku". So fewer options doesn't equal more/easier to dominate even if you might believe it to be so.

Check out this clip where a guy finds Leedy in an arcade at around the 1min mark for an illustration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU9UH0tO-OY

I prefer VF defense and options by the way (concept of sabaki's for instance) so this is not me trolling it's me giving perspective. I love staggersituation in VF and I think cause of Tekken not really having that it makes certain situations weird. I also agree that not many moves are actually used in gameplay as opposed to VF but that's cause Nitaku isn't really there in the same regard and besides VF is moving towards Tekken attackwise a lot anyways. I don't agree with launchers not being counterable (many many are) and once again feel that you can't do cross comparisions like that cause of the movement system making it more risky to just throw out stuff in general. In VF you can imo throw out a move and with for instance fuzzy cover your steps more. Most things land on someone's guard in a neutral situation.

You are right about the throwmechanics being weak though when you get up to a certain level (like the one above but most people will never reach it sadly) - crouchthrows are a joke for instance. But in summary; it's just different games and you're judging everything always from a certain viewpoint. In your case it's your history with VF which you are clearly biased towards. Your statement saying that you can't take Tekken as a serious fighter says more about you then the game itself. The same goes for you not being able to see at what high level top tekkenplayers are at. I wouldn't play this game if it weren't for the inspiration of guys like Knee and Leedy. The single most impressive fightinggame clip I've watched I think I got from the LD FTP which were a series of matches between knee and nin.

Btw Jeneric knows full well that DVJ's laserthrow isn't the norm but an exeption so it was sort of missleading to use it in the way he did (some throws are faster) really. It's one of the reasons why DVJ is toptier together with Julia etc. There are lots of things I wish Tekken could improve upon gamebalance etc but it's a great game. Word around the campfire is that 112 with mishimas isn't hitscannable anymore so nice find after all these years Namco lol. It gives a little hope for BR but with a cast of 40+ characters... uhm, yeah.

Isn't it funny how these threads always derail?

Edit: Just saw blackulas's post, well said. I hate Lili d3+4 and think it's so fucking unbalanced =) I don't care that it's -18. It crushes mids. I've had it go under hammerfists with hei and whatnot and it totally rapes certain situations (like Baek strings) etc. The damage she can get out of it is high (and easy) also. Thank god for moves like bruce B+2 lol. Problem is she can do an attack on you and use that as some sort of fucking panic button instead of having a defense and I hate that.

 

Throws don't override the attack, it's just frames vs frames. Just like attack vs attack, which attack wins? The attack that hits first. In Tekken throws have the same priority as attacks, if a throw connects before the attack, it wins (exception is if attack meets throw at the same exact frame, then attack wins). VF is actually one of the few games where attack has constant priority over throws.

EDIT: Bryan's uf+4 is something like 24 frames in execution....it can be comparable with Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif which is +/-0 on block and grants high dmg on all hit....or Akira's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif which is 23 frames in execution, +3 on block gives extremely high damage on all hits and is a double palm attack. Not saying safe launchers isn't a problem, but bad example.

 

I must agree, d+3+4 with Lili is freakin annoying. I can't tell you how many times that a friend just happened to do that in a move and it hit. And yes, it crushes mids. It crushes Paul's deathfist. The move is hella unsafe, but they need to change the properties of the move. High crush I can see, but not a mid crush. And to tell you the truth, if I can recall, I may have seen a time where it crushed a low. LOL! At least, I think I saw that.

And yes, b+2 with Bruce is awesome. It's safe, only -6 on block. and on CH, you get stun into nice combos. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif However, it is very linear, has no tracking whatsoever, and can easily be sidestepped. So if you can anticipate that an opponent is going to attack you and are not sidestepping or sidewalking, feel free to throw it out and hope for that CH.

Oh yeah, Bruce is my main if you didn't know that. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

Edit: Now I'm not a Kage player but does that move you listed crush any moves? The fact of the matter is that move of Bryan's, it may be 24 frames of execution, but it crushes almost everything. Highs, mids, and lows. And it's completely safe. They need to either change the properties of the move or make it punishable. Most people off a regular launcher will be able to get at least 50-55 pts damage no problem. But when you're able to get 65 pts damage off a SAFE launcher, something is definitely wrong.

 

Kiwe, I don't know why you remember stuff I wrote but good luck with that /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
Anyway, I don't know why people get upset when people are biased towards VF on VFDC.
Is it bc you're not biased and that makes you special or something? /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
Seriously though, I play most fighting games casually and maybe that's where my "ignorance" comes from (lulz) but at the end of the day do any of you "non-biased" people ever pick a fighter to call your favorite for whatever reason?
It's obvious that if I was forced to only play one fighter for the rest of my life it would be VF and for that I guess I'm a "fanboy" (tan tan tunnnn!) "oh noes, i prefer VF over other fighters I think are crappy, I must be on a high horse or just ignorant and/or stupid, duh"... or maybe:
I have an opinion.

So yeah, call me out for preferring one game to another game. Tell me about the error of my ways for not seeing that Fighter X does not suck when compared to Fighter Z.
Call me a fanboy bc I love almost everything about Fighter Z.
For you can take away my PS3 pad and take away my sleep but you will never take away OUR FREEDOM!!!

 

Tony, young padwan, when do you want to begin your Bruce training?

 

Lol, seriously, listen to this guy, he def knows what the hell he's talking about when it comes Tekken.
Hey Blackula, if T6BR comes to PS3 you know I'm going to get some games in. Even if I can't mess with you top players I can still put a hurting on some mid-level scrubs XD

 

Well I can tell you this much. It's going to be a while before BR comes to PS3. T6 never had a US official arcade release. They've made no mention of even the first T6 coming to PS3. I mean Namco, throw us a bone over here in the US. Give us something and stop making us wait.

 

Well, it does make you look and the others look like dumbasses. Which your post displays quite well.

Yes, T6 sucks, but don't group that in with decent Tekkens like DR. Which was actually pretty balanced, because you saw Kumas winning tourneys.

 

Yeah, I was gonna post pretty much exactly this.

 

what? maybe you can't, but i can go on about how superior vf is to tekken for hours.

one example that tony pointed out; tekken has tons of launchers that are safe or not very dangerous on guard. compare that to vf, where moves like jacky's high angle kick are -15 on guard, which allows enough time for most any move/throw to connect if you're the other player.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And is "gimmicky" the new retard word of the month or something? Wth is it even supposed to relate to?</div></div>

how about how tekken has done nothing for the 3d fighting genre since it's inception? or how it's watered down vf? or how it simply mimics everything vf does for no other reason than to say that they did it too?

or i could relate it to how the game's only saving grace comparable to other 3d fighters are its pace and overall simplicity. your pick.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is the problem with Tekken vs VF arguments on a Tekken or a VF board, everyone knows too little about the other game and just makes wild claims based on their limited experiences. Everyone here goes in an uproar when someone claims things about VF that are not true and says another fighting game is better, but what makes you all think this is any different?</div></div>

because my experience with tekken isn't limited?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know everything or even half about VF, I don't know everything or even half about Tekken and I doubt that many here can claim anything different.</div></div>

then does that really put you in a position to say anything on the matter?

i have played a great amount of tekken 5dr, and while i probably couldn't win sbo, i'm not terrible at it by any means. i just don't see how the game appeals on things other than speed, roster size, ease of combos and ring size (see: gimmicks). and quite frankly, when i ask tekken players why they play it over vf, those are typically the kind of answers i get.

just because it's played at sbo doesn't mean it's good. for fucks sake, they had arcana at sbo last year, and that game makes marvel look like the atlantic ocean in terms of depth.

edit: rereading this post, it came off as pretty hostile, which wasn't really intended. i still have yet to accurately portray how i speak over the internet.

the point of this wall of text is that even from the most jaded tekken fans, i have yet to hear an argument for tekken that wasn't something along the lines of "it's more fun lolz". and that's fine; games are meant to be fun. but when you start trying to say that it's on the same level of depth as vf, you start to sound like the smash bros players who say that melee is the most technical game ever made. i understand that some people just have a preference for faster paced games (and honestly, i can see how people can find vf to be boring), but apples to apples please. vf is really just in a league of it's own, and until someone can legitimately claim otherwise, there's no reason to continue this age old argument.

 

When's the next Bloody Roar coming out?

 

Bwahahahaahhaaha!!!
Hey lil buddies, welcome to VFDC where you'll have a way better time defending Tekken than if you were to go to Tekken Zaibatsu or DOA Central and tried defending VF /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif
Since you two already started name calling, let's descent deeper into this most intellectual way of resolving differences:
Did you two fucking morons even read half of my post??? Lmfao, get a sense of humor, learn to recognize some irony and sarcasm and please do the interwub a favor and stop taking discussions of X game on Z's game site seriously.

Oh, btw, great contribution to the discussion:
"Duh, I'm going to get on this thread and call this guy a dumbass, yeah, that'll get my point accross, duh, what was my point again? Oh yeah, he displays that he's an idiot and I display that I'm smart by calling him an idiot, yeah, THAT'S what this thread needs... yeah."

 

Battle Arena Toshinden is way fuckin' better! You're stoopid. And ugly. And a poop face. And I question your manlyness.