The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

So you're in one of those situations where there are no other players to play offline, and single player just doesn't cut it.

But the fact that VF was the first real fighter on the PS3 should have given it maximum exposure. At the time for those that had purchased one it was a $600-$700 machine with very few games. If you liked fighting games even a little, you would have at least tried VF5. That's why I think VF's problem is more than just bad marketing on the part of SEGA.

If you listen to the

The Gamerbee Interview

He says that VF is too hard for beginners. It also (sounds) like he's suggesting that Sega should make VF or market VF a little more like Tekken and Street Fighter (although I'm not sure).

One thing is certain, the size of the player base is not just a matter of poor advertising by Sega. Part of it is VF's bare bones presentation, its difficulty see The Gamerbee Interview

Its lack of fighting Kangeroos, Kodiak Bears, fireballs, lighting bolts, magical mist, robots, winged devils,disappear-reappear moves, power ups, rage systems, etc, in other words: to much realism not enough fantasy

Sega AM2? Developers Say we based moves on Realistic Styles and Martial Arts Moves

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

That actually made me laugh out loud.

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

Yea, with no one to compete with, it kills the motivation for me to try to get better. When I moved back to Minnesota and didn't have a cable connect online for 8 months, I never even turned the game on. What for? I mean I love me some VF, but I need to be playing somebody. Even if it's noobs

Even now, with the lack of people playing Online, you see a great decline with the people (and their spirit for the game) who still do/try to play Online diminish greatly. And that's because of the lack of competition imo. It's all about having people to play with. And lack of an Online mode takes a LOT of that away.


So yea, even with VF being the only fighting game at the time. If one walked into a store and saw there's no online for it, that HAS to help one make the decision to not get/try it.

In a game where two people compete, with no one to compete with, what else is there?

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

@Colorful_Tengu and Tha_FeauchA

Tha_FeauchA's post gets right at part of my motive for this thread. Tengu I realize your question might be rhetorical, or might have a tinge of sarcasm to it, but I will answer it honestly.

The more I play VF5 version B on the PS3, the game play just gets deeper and more enjoyable. Which makes me wonder how come VF is not the defacto fighting game (for everyone!) I ask myself how come VF doesn't sell 1.5 to 3 million copies like Tekken and SC does. If VF5 had sold between 2 to 4 million copies we would all be playing VF5R or VF5FS right now.

Although everyone says its Sega's poor marketing, that answer
doesn't explain the whole picture. As I've posted I've seen new players pickup VF try it a few rounds and then put it down and pickup Tekken or SC and be in love. I know people that have traded VF back in, because they just didn't like the game. So the idea that once you know about VF, you're gonna love aint true.

No Online for the PS3 was (and is) a marketing mistake on Sega's part.

But XBL has Online and Tha_feauchA says there is a great decline in players online. What's that about? So what if you don't have VF5FS, you got version C and online, shouldn't word of mouth and the fact the VF5 for the XBOX has online be enough
to attract and retain new players?

@Colorful_Tengu so what does this thread have to do with inner peace and losing to a 10kyu with a timeout. Its a selfish thread. I want to be playing VF5FS right now, and because of poor sales and low server usage VF5R and VF5FS have not been ported to consoles. So looking into the poor sales I see several reasons:

1) Sega's poor/non existant advertising
2) Decison not to add online play to Version B of VF5(PS3)
3) Mediocre-to-Horrible Box Art
4) Sega's lack of support for VF tournaments outside of Japan
5) Targeting VF at fantasy fighting gamers
(but leaving all of the fantasy out of the
game .e.g pandas, kangeroos, fireballs, lighting bolts,
etc)[/size]
6) Sega not paying any serious attention to the ideas/requests
of the console fans outside of Japan

7) Sega not willing to sell VF5 Cabinets outside of Japan


#5 deals with the Virtua Fighter realism Dilemma. Namely VF doesn't have enough fantasy to appeal to the majority of the market that plays Tekken and SC, and it has too much fantasy to appeal to the sports combat simulation markets such as UFC 2010, EA's MMA.


None of this information changes the fact that I don't have VF5FS right now, but it does help me to exactly rationalize why I don't have it, and why its quite possible It'll never be released on consoles.

 

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I agree with you 110% there. But unfortunantly a large percentage of others don't feel the same, and I guess feel being on strike from playing VF5 will help get the new VF to consoles.

Which boggles me, but also this is my first VF game (i'm told I played a lot of VF2 in the early 90's but I don't really remember that lol) and don't have a lot of...History? commitment? I don't know what to call it but whatver it is, with SEGA like that.

Also, from what i've heard, they did this with VF4 too. Releasing a new version in Japan but no where else. Yet players were still committed to VF4. And for SEGA to do it yet again was just too much for the folks who have been supporting SEGA since back then, and even farther.

So when you look at it like that, it can make sense as to why some are reacting the way they are. From what I see, most all these players don't think VF5 C. is a bad game, and no other game really fulfills their fighting game needs like VF does. They just want to make a point. Even though I personally feel being Online would make a stronger point. But I can somewhat understand. Weather it be lag, or the R n FS thing.


New players coming in now wouldn't be too good of an experience imo. For reasons I said earlier, no one to play against. One may go to Dojo, learn the moves, play Quest Mode to get items and learn to fight some with their character. Then try to go Online to test themselves only to find crickets chirping (lol). Shit, a new player could even come here to VFDC and still probably not find anyone to play against them, big reason being new and not very good yet. That's how bad it seems right now.

Not exactly saying no one is ever playing Online. The lobby system makes it hard to see how many are actually playing/trying to play. And the people who happen to be lucky enough to find a fairly lag free opponent, close to or way above their skill level will most likely play them to get their VF fix for 20-60 minutes then bounce out the game. So finding players can be hard.

Then there's people like me who want to and are more than willing play VF, but after waiting for 10-20 minutes for someone to join, I just have to go to another game and play that instead. But if someone invited me, i'd be there ASAP. It may seem like I don't play VF, i'll play whoever, regardless of how good or bad you are ,for at least a lil bit. I just don't want to wait forever sitting there waiting for someone to join.

There could be 30 people playing Online all at the same time. But if everyone is locked with another player, you're pretty much out of luck. And don't not be very good at the game, it'll be real tight on you then lol. But that's just how it is.

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

Trying to make a point to Sega by not going online, would more than likely have the opposite affect. Sega would see the low traffic on the servers, they see the low sales figures, and there's no way there gonna put more money into console versions.

Sega did screw us with VF4. There was something called VF4 final tuned. It never saw the light of day on consoles. Notice that it had the word "final" in it, just like Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown. We did eventually get VF5 although we did not get final tuned. So does that mean we're gonna get VF6 and not VF5FS.

Well if there's nobody playing online, and nobody's really buying the game. Why should Sega put out another console version if the version thats already out is not getting much action?

Have you checked VFDC and the XBOX online threads, seems like we should have somebody from VFDC online at all times Especially considering the fact that VFDC has members from all over the world. We should have somebody online for every timezone on the planet. R U sure though the lack of traffic doesn't have something to do with your geographical reigon?

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

Well, most hot times i've found seem to be after 9pm central.

Even if someone was always online, soon as they go into a match, the next person wouldn't be able to find them. Due to the lobby system. So it would seem no one is playing, unless they're on your friends or friends friend list so you could see what they're doing.

But I am thinking about doing something for making matches avaliable for people using the Xbox Party system. Not having Homestay/Chibita/Fuddo etc. like status is going to make it a lil harder. But it's tough for me to just sit back and watch it go down like this without trying to do something about it.

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

You should go for your idea whatever it is, it can't hurt. Anything that promotes VF is a good thing. Lots of top players don't play noobs too much. That's not true of all top players, but many. Anything that keeps noobs, and intermediate players playin would be good. So good luck. But is your plan something different from what they're trying in the XBOX live thread on VFDC?

@Colorful_Tengu I apologize for the typo, there was no attempt at disrespect. I have corrected the spelling in my post.

For some reason when you read in my post that the more I play VF the deeper I realize VF is and the more I enjoy it, you assume I meant in single player mode. That's incorrect. I have between 3 to 7 people to play offline on any given day. A couple of friends, a co-worker, my brothers, my son, and my girl all regularly play. Granted, playing the same people all the time gets a little old, but its better than bumping into someone online from time to time, or only playing the AI.


Second, I do more or less agree with you about the game press and the publisher. Just because they say its realistic, doesn't mean that it is. But I'm using them as references to make the point that people who don't know what VF is will either get their opinion from box art, gamer press,
or you tube interviews, reviews etc. So even if the reality thing is a stretch, people that are not already into VF don't know that. A lot players only know the "reputation" of VF.
I get your post, we're more on the same page than you think,

I'm primarily talking about perceptions, and how VF was perceived when it was first introduced in 1993 in comparison to the other fighters on the market.

A lot of the realism had to do with the comparison between 3d polygon graphics and 2D sprite animation. Some of the perceived realism had to do with the fact that VF did not have kangeroos, pandas, kodiaks, robots, fireballs, lighting bolts, magical mist etc. And the fact that AM2 specifically tried to model some aspects of real martial arts added to the whole thing.

But obviously when you compare VF to a UFC 2010 or FNR4 those games really go after realism and its clear that VF doesn't
in comparison to those.

But I started this thread just wondering or pondering whether
VF as a fighting game would be more appreciated by the sports combat fighting fanbase. Since the Tekken/SC/DOA fanbase have more or less rejected it, would the UFC2009/2010 EA MMA
fan look at VF as a complementary game. I suspect they might.
Because I like those kind of fighting games and I think that VF is the best fighter on the planet. We know what the tekken /street fighter fans will do when offered VF. How would the sports combat fighting game fans receive VF?



@Colorful_Tengu you think that VF cannot be revived, well
maybe VF in its current form can't be revived and will never sell 2-to-3 million copies in the first year. But a VF that has been modified some to appeal more to the combat sports fighting fan might.

Possible Positive Changes to VF (from Sport Combat Market point of view)

I don't mean drastic modifications, but maybe lowering the height animation of the floats, and swapping out some of the float animations for more crumples, staggers, and stumbles. Also changing the Box art to look more like the game has to do with matches, fighting tournaments, and championship fights.

The VF fighting engine has evolved from VF1 to VF5FS that's a fact. The animations have undergone lots of changes over the years. Maybe VF can hit the huge numbers if it moves away from the tekken/sc market and towards the UFC/MMA market (with minor changes and some new box art)

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

You just want a whole new game for that matter or have a affinity for Soul Calibur. I think its time i step away from this site for good now. FS can't come soon enough and people start saying stupid shit.

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

I don't mind realistic games, because I wouldn't prefer more of the same, so not from the UFC game itself, but something different from the company's imagination.

While on the subject, I think that the game Virtua Fighter doesn't need combo juggles, because it's kind of repetitive seeing nearly all traditional fighting games have such a silly thing. It's my belief that the game is fine without that aspect.

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

@Colorful_Tengu I think you're on to something with having the game look more raw. Hell, that's not even changing game mechanics, like you said in some cases its just a matter of lighting. They could make VF a 'darker' maybe more sinister game by changing the lighting and the music. (That doesn't require changes to the fighting mechanics) You're right, why not give it a theme. Soul Calibur does do an exceptional job with that.

Maybe VF could have the assassins vs body guards theme. Has anybody seen the movie Bodyguards and Assassins

Body Guard vs Assassins (Cung Le vs Donnie Yen)

With half the VF fighters being on the Assassins side and the other half being on the Bodyguard side. With darker stages, and a little more sinister lighting and music. That would have a dramatic affect on sales without changing game play at all.


But if you took it a step further, reduced the floating height, and swapped out some floating for staggers, crumples, etc. Vf would be even more of a kick ass game.

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

Tengu, this is something I completely agree with. Less floats, more staggers. I think DOA does this beautifully, but then it does not give you enough options to struggle out of stuns.

 

Re: The Virtua Fighter Realism Dilemma

Speaking of floats I heard the strangest reason for not liking VF the other day. My friend who is a huge SSF4 fan told me "I don't like all that floaty stuff in VF, its not very real and there's nothing you can do whilst your up there"

I countered that SSF4 has combo's that can't be stopped if the timing is right, and that there is nothing realistic about a man throwing a huge fireball across the screen. He then said something else "the game's just not sexy, it's full of generic characters like Akira karate man"

Again I countered that SF has Ryu who could be considered generic Karate man, and that the game is one of the sexist looking fighters on the market. We argued like this for a good 3 hours, and it ended when he just changed the subject. I don't see anything wrong with VF as it is, I like the system and the floats are just like combo's to me.

The impression I get is that Sega are happy for VF to keep its small fanbase, and won't dare to change the game for fear of losing that loyal fanbase.

However from what I'm reading the "loyal" in that statement is slowing becoming a withered soul indeed.

 

I agree also. While I think VF5 is a GREAT game, for those that play SF or TEKKEN or Mortal Kombat, it may seem kind of vanilla and plain. Not flashy enough. No fireballs or flaming fists.

While I am sure we all love the fact that the game is what it is, I think people looking for a fighter now a days want the flashy, (over exaggerated)bouncing boobs, fireball throwing elements that other games have.

Sad really. I for one bought both Tekken 6 and VF5 Online for that very reason.

 

Moonbaseone's post is why I think maybe (just maybe) If VF was marketed toward the Sports Combat fighting game fanbase (i.e UFC2009/2010, EA's MMA, FNR4 players) it might be (just might be) more appreciated for what it is.


Like, Colorful_Tengu said, just changing the lighting on the stages, making it a little more raw, would probably go along way. And if the height of the juggles are lowered and some of the juggles are swapped out for more staggers, and crumples
Maybe the sports combat fighting fanbase would pickup on it.

I guess though the joke is on us, because Sega doesn't seem to be interested in expanding the fanbase beyond the arcades in Japan. Or perhaps Sega is content selling 300,000 to 400,000 console units every 5 or 6 years.

It appears there is really no love for a fighting game that is
not quite fantasy based and not quite a simulation. PPL either want all out fantasy or they want all out realism, and since VF is neither it doesn't sell very many units.

The other problem is, to get really good at VF enough to truly get the value out of the game requires many hours a week, who's gonna dedicate so much time to a VF when Sega will not even say what its plans are for a new console version of VF?

THQ has already committed to another UFC game
EA has already committed to another MMA game
Namco has all but committed to another Soul Calibur
Namco has also dropped hints about a Tekken 7 for consoles
Tecmo is right in the middle of a rumor about DOA on PS3

Everybody but Sega has given their fans a thumbs up for the next version. For the most part all we get is the silent treatment