Throw Tiers! Who has the best throw game?

YOure right that we should have these discussions more often. However, Kage without TFT has pretty similar throw game to most characters if you start looking at the lists more carefully. His damage is basically the same what Lion does without his combo throw for example. Kage's standard combos from TFT without a wall do... what, 65 damage?

BUT Kage still has 5 damaging throw directions AND a catch throw (which is available from his stances as well). He also has good okizeme after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif.

I think you rate Akira higher than Lei due to having played more against him /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Lei is actually one of the characters I've played against the most in my years playing VF.

I think you rate Akira lower because....well, Mishima and Akira players always do /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

I think it's safe to say that in R, Wolf is definitely top tier for throws. Most damaging front throw in the game, 100 point inescapable back throw, more chances to get the Emerald Frosion hit throws in (it's around 100 points from the Clothesline) and multiple push/change of direction throws. Add in a couple of catch throws and it's easy to see why. Even his neutral P+G is ridiculously dangerous if next to a wall as you can get a TKS off it for 104 points).

In 5, it's still strong but not as strong as R. Giant Swing is more powerful and goes backwards and he still has Turbo Drop and SHST which can be used as TFTs.

I would make the joke about Lei Fei being bottom tier because he has no throws, but it's been done before.

Also, now that Kage and Sarah (and possibly others) have lost their /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif catch throws in R, does anyone think this will affect their throw game in any major way? I know Wolf lost his, but he regained /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif which seems better, so he's not really affected.

 

Ok then, I'll do it.
Lei has not throws! He only has special kicks.

Anyway, I'd actually put Vanessa a bit higher, although still in A. She has /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif throws and pretty decent throw damage in general. What makes her unique is that the opponent has to change the TE inputs depending on her stance. That alone makes her throw game... well, awesome, which means not S tier, but a very high A tier.

 

Her DS throw game is really good (the dropoff between her 2nd and 3rd best direction is vast and she has the worst neutral /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif in the game, but still very, very good), I placed her a bit lower based on that you have to sort of do a agregate of her DS and OS throw game, the latter really being nothing special.

 

We shouldnt be talking about R really. Also, I thought Wolfs PGS damage was nerfed in R..

Also, I feel that youre overestimating Vanessas throw game.. She being in A tier is simply due to having low throws like Pai and blaze (the rest lowthrowers are in S tier)..

 

While PGS and F-5 were both nerfed, Burning Hammer which replaced KS still does 80 points of damage on it's own and is the strongest normal front throw in the game.

As far as I know, there are no other normal front throws in VF5 or R that do more than 80 damage on their own (aside from an unteched PGS in 5).

 

My take on vanessa:

1. Low throws: some characters don't have those so it automatically bumps her a tier.

2. Bad neutral throw: Vanessa is at negative frames if the opponent techrolls (somewhat adressed in VF5R imho)

3. Excellent /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif throw: 53 dmg for a mere -2 if escaped (seen the down attack get evaded in VF5R /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif probably the vanessa player was messing around though) and that's for the just-hit forward version, her HCF throws are even more damaging PLUS her wall throws are /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif too.

4. DS /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif direction: rarely broken direction, decent 47 damage, option to change sides! ( /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif got even better in VF5R since it no longer requires the stomp to reach that damage)

5. DS zangief throw: excellent damage. unfortunately if you can't input a 270 throw you're missing one throw direction (fixed in VF5R, both simplified input & new /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif throw).

6. limited OS throws: OS is tied with Jacky for having just 3 + neutral throw directions.

7. telegraphing catch throw: (fixed in VF5R)

8. OS evade p+k: spam worthy even if it's slow, escapable, throwable & low throwable (removed in VF5R /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif )

I'm not that good with arbitrary scaling, specially those with starting with random alphabet letters, but i think that, provided your vanessa plays 100% from DS and provided you can do her 270° throw, yes she's got awesome throws. But if you're like me and can't pull a Zangief and play 60-40% DS-OS then you're probably waiting impatiently for VF5R.

I now invite all of you to google up "vale tudo" and look at what google images has to say about vanessa not having ground throws /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/mad.gif

Here's my take on Lion btw:

1. neutral throw, no disadvantage, can allow for OM madness

2. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif throw 50 + pounce (i haven't been able to avoid it yet) = 70-ish damage /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif throw

3. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif throw = 60 damage (confused it with regular /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif which guarantees a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, still decent damage though)

4. 3 different /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif throws, one for 40 damage & oki, one for 20 damage & stagger, one to switch sides (& min 20 dmg from /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif)

5. catch throw that recovers low /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

If you ask me that's pretty awesome for a fast poking character like lion who's going to have you guard a lot.

 

I think someone is letting you get away with murder /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif is 60, no stomp guaranteed, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif is character dependent since it's a combo starting throw, but if I remember correctly no combo breaks 70 without the aid of walls.

 

In vanilla 5, Jacky's throw game is atleast a half step better than Sarah's imo.

Because vanilla 5 is more a of a 'waiting' conservative game, Jacky's throws don't put him into immediate "possible" harms way after landing them. Alot of Sarah's throws put you in range of wakeup kicks that have intense range, so you got to have the balls to crash them or guard the correct mid or low from it and figure out if it's a delayed punishable one or the fast unpunishable ones. Or, you have to be able to move Sarah around fast with stepping movements. You're not really given the choice of getting away most of the time, whereas with Jacky's throws you can get away or you can come in with wakeup pressure(although I say Sarah's wakeup pressure is a lil bit better).

And it's probably in your best interest to just wait the shit out on wakeup.

Sarah's neutral throw is by far better than Jacky's for sure though.

In R, there's no more delayed risers. The regular rising kicks are the easiest ones to crash, over the delayed punishables ones. As you can see, in R now, Sarah can use a throw on you in R and just step all over your body with flamingo 2/8 P+K - G and make everything whiff.

 

I dont think pounce is guaranteed after any of Lions throws except /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and that propably has other followups you wanna do.. Lots of people eat pounce after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif but it is not guaranteed afaik. Light down attack is guaranteed after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif but not pounce afaik.

 

I'm more like 60% OS, 40% DS. It all depends on the opponent though... and yes, I can't wait to get my hands on 5R /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I train MMA and we spend 70-80% of the time actually training BJJ. I can't really think of any reasons (except for some balance issues maybe) for Vaness not to have ground throws!
Still, she uses some ground techniques during i.e. DS/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif OS throws and Mount/Tackle.

Sorry for the offtopic.

I guess she doesn't have such a great throw game, like most of you said, b/c of average OS throw game. She could use some ground throws though... 20 dmg ones at least or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Minor quibble, I'm pretty sure Lions /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif (side crumple) /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif,/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif does 72dmg.

Although that may only be with /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif at the end of it which arn't guarenteed, can't remember.

 

I'd say Dural has the best throws going on for him, period.

 

I believe we were talking about throw combos in this thread

Hmm, TFT, PGS, Kages /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif and Vanessas (!) P+G if memory serves? no low throws, could be better I think. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif I dunno if Dural is a he, mighty manboobs if thats the case /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Thought Dural also had Giant Swing and Splash Mountain?

 

PGS = perfect giant swing. She doesnt have splash mountain. She only has 4 throws, no catch or low throws.

 

just wanted to point out, lei fei vs. lightweights 33p+g, hai p+k,p, 3pp is 72 damage guaranteed, no wall

 

My bad on the GPS manji, guess Dural's second best /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/laugh.gif

 

Ah my bad, wasn't concentrating.