Throwing in VF4...

Throws take 8 frames to come out and stay effective for 3 frames. I didn't know it was 3 frames until recently. (Sure, I knew it was longer than VF 1, 2 and 3 where it was just for 1 frames.) This is thanks to GP's link. Some guy there is crazy enough to test all the frame stuff.

Throws stay effective for 3 frames??!! Heh, and I thought an 8f ex for throws make fuzzy guarding difficult, it just seems technically impossible now.

 

Kewl -- finally got that one. That isn't a bad translation either, although Tame means more to pile-up or save. Goofy nihongo lesson - I work in "Tameike" the Tame part meaning to save, or build up. Ike - a pond. When I asked why, I heard back in the old days, this place flooded like a bitch when Typhoons hit. Interesting, no?

 

Haha, Myke is absolutely right, you can't choose my terminology. My writing is my own, and if the audience wants to understand what I write, they must understand my choice of terms (and myself likewise when I want to understand other people...but this is increasingly rare, unfortunately). Truly, it is arrogant, but so are demands otherwise.

Creed is also correct in that I use eight and parallel terminology to annoy people that use definitions as premises for arguments, or people that get angry over such things. I must confess, however, that it's not specifically aimed at any single person. Sorry to disappoint you Bungle.

That said, I continue to meet people that get open/closed mixed up (even after I explain it to them), whereas with eight/parallel it's lucid at first explanation. Of course, most of these people also have Chinese/Japanese backgrounds.

Finally, my suspicions of how the Japanese differently conceptualize major/minor counter has only been recently reaffirmed. No matter how that one AM2 document structured/labelled the system (it was VF2 document right?), most Japanese players would be confused as hell if you ask them about major/minor counters. I am only bringing this up to help explain where GaijinPunch is coming from. This major/minor stuff is a relatively English-speaking-VF-on-the-Internet attribute, if not invention.

Also, Creed, the reason some people (and most Japanese VF guides) tend to just use "counter" instead of differentiating between MC/mC (or whatever the Japanese equivalent) is that the properties associated with MC/mC are rather different. There are no set rules as to how these properties are determined but are largely move-specific. Few people know such specific nuances, and I would argue that such details are irrelevant for people who need character guides in the first place.

Semantics...always the popular topic! But I suppose it's preferable to flaming.

 

I'm not taking sides. But, I would like to point out that there is at least one well defined rule for Major and Minor counters ("Counter" and "Kouka Counter", aka. "Hardening Counter", in the mooks). That rule is the damage bonus applied, and in VF4 it's a 50% bonus for Major Counters and a 25% bonus for Minor counters. Which is what makes true Throw Countering so sweet -- adding 25% to a Crucifix is big damage.


cheers,
kbcat

 

Arrogant indeed. Necessary, imo, I think not.

For the record, however, can we clear the air on your most recent invention?

Referring to VF4 (Ver.C, B, whatever) as PE is a bit much. Why is it so hard to refer to these versions as anything but VF4? And the new game as VF4E or Evo, etc? Pre-Evo? ugh. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif Let's just end it now and agree to never write it again - can we do this? /versus/images/icons/smile.gif

cheers,

 

> Truly, it is arrogant, but so are demands otherwise.

Fuck you. It is not arrogant to ask for people to stick to standardized terms that have been used for as long as VF has been around in the English-speaking community.

> Sorry to disappoint you Bungle.

You dissapoint all of the other VF'ers who have used those terms for years on end and try to work toward standardized terms, you arrogant, self-serving, disgusting piece of shit.

 

Yeah, but I think you'll find a huge portion of JPN VF'ers rarely read the mooks. Perhaps since our asian counterparts that have lots of competition on a normal basis (mainly due to geographical crampedness) don't find it necessary to read mooks. I never have. I always ask people I fight with, which has done wonders for my game.

 

True, I was -- however -- just pointing out that there is a defined difference between the two types of counters, and that it's not just the North Americans who know about them The Japanese have always been aware of them and references to them appear in their literature. Just bringing facts to light, not arguing a point.

cheers,
kbcat

 

True, true.

There are a few other instances I've noticed that are different. Ones that come to mind are:

"Down Attack" which refers to a pounce, or it's weaker but quicker counterpart (usually or ). There only seems to be one word in Japanese although I could be wrong.

"Ukemi" which means to stay down instead of tech-roll. Is there a word for this besides "don't tech roll" that's used in English?

"Machi" - this word isn't used that often in the JPN game centers... at least not the ones I go to.

"Lucky cocksmoking whore!" - used in Japan by me only, usually when a friend beats me.

 

kbcat:

Yea, I know, the Blue Book differentiates them too. But, they are conceptualized differently...for example, if you were to discuss with a Japanese player about different types of "counter" than just two, and the two corresponding modified damage levels, they'll know what you mean. You say that here and angry little people like Bungle will froth at the mouth, though it's ultimately the same thing expressed differently.


Llanfair:

I distinguish between PE/Evo the same way we distinguish between OB/TB. And I thought I was keeping with precedent there.


Bungle:

You dissapoint all of the other VF'ers who have used those terms for years on end and try to work toward standardized terms, you arrogant, self-serving, disgusting piece of shit.

Sorry. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

GP: I'm about 99% sure that Ukemi means to tech roll. Any mooks' section on Tech Rolling/QRing is always called "Ukemi" and rolling Ukemi is "Uten Ukemi" and QR's are "Sono Ba Ukemi".

If you don't "Take" ukemi, the books I read say "ukemi tottenai".

It's also how I talk about TR'ing with my japanese friends on the phone/in japan.

maybe I mis-understood what you meant?

BTW, in 4 days, I'll be in Japan. I'd like to meet up with you, can you PM me your info (cell #, etc)? My name's Bryan in reality.

Spotlite

 

Well, we're both wrong... hehe... I *THOUGHT* Ukemi (as it means 'passive' in Japanese) was... well... being passive, until I went through the training mode. Ukemi is hitting the three buttons and rising -- no rolling. I didn't go any further in the training though, although the rest could be in there. I've never heard the word 'uten' before, but doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'd never heard of Sabaki before either.

There are tons of 'vf4 system' pages out there...maybe I Should dig around.

 

An ancient term that hasn't been dug out since VF2 might jog your memory for VF4's "don't roll".. muteki oki

It was used to describe holding down on the controller after being knocked down, and not struggling to rise at all. The result made for some entertaining mindgames - you character actually gets up slower (or is it the collective imagination of a few people?) and so when your opponent goes to pressure the riser with a sidekick or elbow, the sidekick or elbow whiffs (you -look- like you're standing up and should be in a position to guard, but you're still technically down).

This was a great defense against whores who did stuff like f,f,f,f+P with sarah all day vs. risers. Sarah's elbow whiffs completely and you cheerfully TFT her.

 

while I mis-spelled "Ooten" as "uten" in my last post, I don't think I'm "wrong" per se.

While when literally translated, Ukemi means "the passive voice", the dictionary I use has a special note marked [Judo]- on the defensive.

When I took judo, the first thing we learned was ukemi, and a book I have called "kodokan judo' says this:

"UKEMI

before practicing throwing techniques or engaging in randori [practice], it is important to master Ukemi, the technique of falling safely. There are four forms of ukemi: backward, to either side, forward, and the forward roll."

In VF4, all the books I have refer to any use of P+K+G to get up after a fall, with the lever or without, as Ukemi.

Ooten uses the 2 kanji for "side" and "turn" togeher followed by ukemi for Ooten Ukemi, rolling to the side ukemi (u or d+P+K+G).

Sono Ba Ukemi uses the hiragana for Sono, the common "that" with the Kanji "Jo" or "ba" for place, for literally "that place Ukemi" (just P+K+G).

Ooten and Sono Ba are also used to describe different types of rising from fully downed positions (okiangari), Ooten for using G to roll, and Sono Ba for just getting up in place.

So if someone says "sono ba okiangari geri" or "sono ba geri oki" for short, it's getting up in the same spot with a kick.

Creed:

yeah, Muteki Oki means literally "invincible rising"; since you're impervious to middle attacks, high attacks, and throws while in that special crouch.

Spotlite

 

Man -- what a lesson. As you can tell, I've never taken a martial arts class in my life. 4+ years in Japan and I'd probably get my ass kicked in a bar room rumble. /versus/images/icons/smile.gif