Top 10 Moves

I didn t explain myself well, when i said only 2P and P can stop it i was refering to a simple 1P+K on guard. On hit on guard ST or Hit ST the wsP will beat all moves (up to 12f) That means that u keep the pressure on him so u re opponent will be in a nitaku position after this move...

Try to see what u re opponent tend to do in the begining of the round, i mean if he backdash for sure don t use it, but some players like to start with an high string move, u ll get CH, or if he tends to guard, u can also use it coz it s a very safe move...
I like to use it also when i do backdash 1P+K it connect very often on CH... (as round starter or during the round) But do not abuse of it... like me lol, against a jacky who knows me well, i kiss his f*****in 4k+g all the time (bad habits =/)

In fact i played a lot of jeffry's so i know when to do it, the best timing is a lil bit before he says "come on" ur 1P+K have to make whiff his "come on" hand, so whatever follows after u ll get a CH. And when u do that to a jeff once, twice three times, he won t do that anymore and you annihilate one of his most dangerous string...
For Aoi, it succeed even on kingo, but once again don t abuse of it, and that s good to use 2KP (i m sure against a lightweight it must have a bigger combo than following P-> 6PKK, i hvave to check it)

for the 1P it makes whiff all high and parry all low... No comment, i love it =p

 

Erdraug all I really want to say is that if you get too focused on looking at frames you'll miss out on what is truly strong about DS. DS is still very capable of throwing a monkey wrench into this games basic mix-up/metagame. If I try to match wits with GT directly and play solidly in OS i'll be outplayed everytime. DS allows me to specifically pinpoint GTs next action and pick the perfect counter option to frustrate him for the split second I need to mix him up.

I don't really want to go into details because in the end very little changed between how I play DS in FS vs how I did in Vanilla. I simply removed all of the moves that were dangerous and gimmicky from before. (K+G, and P+KP). The one move I've really lamented was 66pp which is no longer half-circ. That is probably the worst nerf for DS all in all.

 

Maki, OK, now i get it. Thanks again for the tip!

Chefboy, you're right, i do tend to focus on that, sorry. It's been that way since vanilla and you had recognized it back then too. Thank you for the insight vs fighting GT (and thus other experienced players).

Chibitox, i thought it over and edited my post acknowledging your feedback. Thank you.

Open question:

After this feedback, should i bump DS to the "bread-and-butter" category? It sort of overlaps with . So i was thinking, should i demote to the situational category? After all, it does seem to have only two functions (pressure, use from big advantage), whereas appears to have more uses (crush high, pressure from mid range/the side & anti-stance).

Suggestions?

 

Agreed, DS is about beating mixups (with the sabakies or 3P) and good throws, it also has good zoning tools that allows her to keep a life lead, and better anti step tools than OS.

@erdraug, 46K is more than situational. In a game that revolves around mid/throw mixups the fact that it didn't beat thows was weird considering DS vanessa design in the first place.

 

4P has it's use as a meaty, or near a wall, or both ^^
Also near the ring edge : offensive move, 4P side guarded (+9) puts the opponent in trouble if he attacks pretty much anything will CH. If you do a second 4P he will get RO if he attacks or even if he blocks due to 4P strong pushback.You just have to mixup with someting that would beat evades (K+G ch into PK should also RO)
Both moves are situational imo, but 1P+K does very well for what its meant for (long range, can't go under it, gives a combo on CH, and beat sabakies for a combo, stance killer (good against Lei Fei for both reasons) it's even strange that it's so safe on block.

 

OK but i kinda have to rank moves, i can't bunch everything under "bread and butter" because, well, if a too many moves are listed in that category then they can't be used all the time (because there are many of them) so they are not really bread and butter and then the definition collapses under its own weight.

I'm inclined to promote DS to BnB. One other thing that was not mentioned is that, since it recovers low, if an opponent evades it then they can't use their typical (standing) punishment against vanessa and might miss out on some guaranteed damage if they don't adjust accordingly and on time.

Are you suggesting i dump them both into situtional and bump DS to BnB? I thought i'd keep the three sabakis bunched at "situational" for the time being since they kind of depend on the opponent's habits anyway.

Any comments on the OS breakdown BTW?

 

For example, after a conversation with Marly & GT on the shoutbox, i just realized that OS is a safe NH launcher. Sure it requires hitchecking but at the same time not many characters have one of those. It has a better reach than OS and a followup, just in case it's evaded. OK, it's still vulnerable to backdash and 2f slower but, at 19f, it can still be used in heavy disadvantage situations (-9, -8, even -7 against low punches and 12f jabs).

So maybe i should bump to situational moves and to extraneous moves? Although swaps places with the opponent... IDK.

I'd really appreciate some OS feedback guys

PS: Also, i just realized i neglected to address Vanessa's jumping moves. I'll try to remedy that soon.

 

As usual i find myself without access to an xbox during the summer break.

So i didn't get to check the jumping moves. However i did update the initial list. The categories remain the same but i've incorporated a lot more, for example range, pushback & detailed followup options. BTW Note asterisks (*) usually refer to properties of a move's followup.

Also i've since familiarized myself with the forum's features so i'll be posting using the spoiler function. Sorry for taking up 4 posts last time.

I think i've incorporated pretty much any worthwhile information about vane's moves in this list - hope it'll end up a a useful reference

Spoiler: DS movelist

Key moves:

or or : Above average throw damage. Fast, anti-evade, anti-guard but short reach, backdash vulnerable, attack vulnerable, no followups, escapable. Use to beat guard, beat evade, punish -10 standing, demoralize.

: Use to duck and punish & to deter opponents from evading to vane's front. Tracks stomach, head crumple on hit, sober 1 but high, short reach, backdash vulnerable, no followups. Use to damage, track stomach, beat throws, punish -17 standing, beat standing abare from +5, demoralize, sober 1+.

(While Standing) : Subs for other characters' elbow. Practice buffering this move after blocked jabs or staggers. Fast, mid, -5 on block, stagger on CH, floor scrapes but linear, backdash vulnerable, no followups, trivial damage if unstaggered. Use to interrupt, poke, punish -13 crouching, floor scrape, taunt.

: Your mid "launcher". Mid, long reach*, sober hit-throw on NH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, hit-throw may whiff at range (-3 on NH). Use to damage, beat throw, beat abare from +5, punish -17 crouching, sober* 1.

: By default the best DS move (since it switches to OS). Mid, long reach, -2 on block, stagger on NH, anti-sabaki, switches to OS but linear, no followups. Use to side pressure, stagger, beat (crouch)backdash up close, punish whiffs, close distance, floor scrape, switch styles.

Staple moves:

: Use p,k to punish. Hitcheck p,p,k or die. Fast, high/mid followups, +2 on block, combo on NH*, +8 on CH but high, linear, backdash vulnerable, followups can whiff at range. Use to interrupt, poke, pressure, punish -12 standing.

: When in doubt use this. Then delay and use some more. Mid, long reach*, high* circular delayable pushback sideturn followup, combo on CH/RH/side NH but linear*, followup may whiff at range. Use to pressure, sideturn*, beat (crouch)backdash up close, punish -16, create distance*, floor scrape.

: Complements df+p+k tracking. If you practice the hit-throw, f+p,df+k mixed up with f+p > throw becomes scary. Mid, tracks back, high/mid followups, combo on NH/CH, sober 1 but backdash vulnerable, -4 on NH (followups are ALSO -3/-2 on NH). Use to pressure, track back, sober 1+.

: Your only choice to consistently beat backdash. Being circular is a nice bonus. Mid, long reach, anti-backdash, full circular, pushback, KD on NH but slow, no followups. Use to gamble, KD, beat evade, beat (crouch)backdash, punish whiffs, close distance, create distance, oki.

: Basic interrupt move. Fast, anti-high, recovers low, -5 on block, +7 on CH but special low, short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, trivial damage. Use to interrupt, poke, abare, punish -12 crouching, chip, taunt.

: Substitute for low punch whenever possible; crouching +2 is all you need when in DS anyway. The foot crumple on CH is a nice bonus. Long reach, anti-high, recovers low, -1 on block, wall stagger on RH, foot crumple on CH but slow, special low, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, (side) pressure, abare, beat (crouch?)backdash up close, beat high abare, close distance, oki.

Situational moves:

: Subs for jab when you need the 2f. Fast, +1 on block, +6 on CH but high, short reach, linear, no followups, trivial damage. Use to interrupt, poke, pressure, punish -10 standing, chip, taunt.

: Subs for jab when you can spare the 2f. Fast, long reach, -2 on block, +6 on on NH, float on CH but high, linear, no followups. Use to interrupt, poke, side pressure, beat backdash up close, beat standing abare from +2.

: Stops certains strings. Abare if you think the reward will outweigh the risk. Long reach, tracks stomach, high +4 on block/+7 on NH sober followup, sabaki vs HP/HE/HK/MP/EL, combo on NH, sober 1 but slow, high, backdash vulnerable. Use to gamble, abare, track stomach, sober* 1.

: Abare if you think the reward will outweigh the risk. Don't forget to read your opponent's mind first! Long reach, -5 on block, sabaki vs HK/MK/SK/KN, slam float on sabaki hit, blast back on NH (more near walls), sober 1 but sluggish, high, linear, backdash vulnerable, no followups. Use to gamble, abare, damage, sober 1+.

: Vane's fastest KD on NH move. Mid, evasive (beats lows from -2?), KD/wallsplat on NH but poor reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to abare, KD, wall splat, punish -16 near walls, taunt.

: Doesn't yield anything on NH. So use after sideturn or if you think the opponent will backdash. Mid, long reach, backdash stagger, wall stagger, crumple on side CH, chargeable but linear, no followups. Use to guard stagger*, wall stagger, backdash stagger, beat (crouch)backdash up close, beat side abare from +4, punish whiffs, demoralize, brainfuck.

: Rather slow. So mix it up with throws from big advantage or after a knockdown. Mid, long reach, +3 on block, +7 on NH, +19 on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, pushback, followups can whiff at range. Use to pressure, beat abare from +9, create distance, oki.

While Holding : Alternative to b,f+k,p. If you're gonna gamble, you might as well go for broke. Mid, tracks back, evasive (sway), stomach crumple on CH/RH but slow, short reach, backdash vulnerable, no followups, -13 on block. Use to gamble, risk, abare, beat throws, track back.

While Holding : Alternative to b,f+k,p. If you're gonna gamble, you might as well go for broke. Mid, tracks stomach, evasive (sway), stomach crumple on CH/RH but slow, short reach, backdash vulnerable, no followups, -13 on block. Use to gamble, risk, abare, beat throws, track stomach.

or or : Worth using to punish lows even with a 1/3 chance of being broken. Fast, anti-low guard, anti-crouchdash but short reach, attack vulnerable, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, escapable. Use to beat low guard, punish -10 crouching.

: Low. Anti-mid/high sabaki/reversal. Hitcheck or die. High sober slam followup, combo on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear, -14 on block*, -6 on NH. Use to risk, beat abare from +5, beat (crouch)backdash up close, demoralize (?), sober* 1+.

: Low. Beats high abare and evade. Will get you killed. Fullcircular, anti-high, recovers low but backdash vulnerable, no followups, -18 on block, -5 on NH. Use to risk, side wall stagger, beat evade, abare.

Decent moves:

: Inherited shadow slicer's safety & pushback. A pity it's high. Long reach, fullcircular, -5 on block, pushback, sideturned +6 on NH, sideturned +9 on CH, sober 1 but slow, high, backdash vulnerable, no followups. Use to gamble, side pressure, beat evade, create distance, sober 1.

: Mostly oki suprise, rather pointless otherwise. Long reach, tracks back, +5 on block*, KD on hit but slow, high, backdash vulnerable, no followups, CH counts as air hit, recovers in IP. Use to gamble, KD, punish standing whiffs, track back, oki, taunt.

: Vane's only crouch stagger move. Mid followup, combo on NH, stagger on crouch hit but backdash vulnerable, linear. Use to pressure, crouch stagger.

: Stops certain strings. Abare at our own risk. The reward is hardly worth the risk. Mid, anti-high, sabaki vs LP/LK, slam on air hit but short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, CH counts as crouch hit*, trivial damage. Use to abare, chip, floor scrape.

: Vane's only move that recovers BT. Mid, evasive (beats lows from -2?), recovers BT but short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, CH counts as back hit,. Use to risk, abare, brainfuck, taunt.

: Your (other) mid launcher. Good luck setting it up outside of oki. Mid, long reach, slam float on NH, sober 1 but slow, linear, no followups, float may whiff at range. Use to gamble, damage, beat throws, beat (crouch)backdash up close, punish whiffs, oki, sober 1+.

: Opponents know how to deal with its shenanigans nowadays. Use backdash > heel kick for similar effects. Mid, long reach, evasive (built-in cancellable backdash), chargeable, cancellable (to OS), stomach crumple on NH but sluggish, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, abare, damage, create distance*, switch styles, brainfuck, taunt.

: Low. IP will get you killed unless you side CH or wall stagger the opponent with the low kick. Long reach, tracks stomach, anti-high but slow, backdash vulnerable, no followups, -17 on block, recovers in IP on hit or whiff. Use to gamble, risk, side wall stagger, abare, track stomach, taunt.

Extraneous moves:

: Funny how no MP inashi makes this useless. Anti-HP, anti-CH but vulnerable to everything else. Use to interrupt, risk, sideturn, chip.

: The drawbacks don't outweigh the 1f difference from k. Fast, mid, -5 on block, escapable hit-throw on CH but linear, backdash vulnerable, no followups, -2 on NH, trivial damage if Hand Hold is escaped. Use to interrupt, poke.

: Good players duck and punish the second hit; use f+p if you want to fish for CH with the followup. Mid, high semicircular fuzzysafe sober CH floater followup, -4 on block, combo on NH but backdash vulnerable, linear. Use to poke, sober* 1.

: Combo filler. Input error for df+p+k or db+p+k. Use b+p+k or d+k to beat mid sabakis/reversals instead. Mid, anti-sabaki, -4 on block, faceplant float on NH, heavy bound on air hit, sober 1 but slow, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, damage, beat throws, sober 1.

or : Low. Round ender. Long reach, anti-high, recovers low but linear, no followups, -15 on block, -6 on NH, trivial damage. Use to risk, beat highs, chip.

Spoiler: OS movelist

Key Moves:

: Standard 14f high float starter. Fast, slam float on NH, sober 1 but high, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to interrupt, damage, beat throws, punish -14 standing, sober 1+.

: Special high. Kills abare. Mixup with f,f+k when opponents start ducking hoping to avoid the pushback. Tracks stomach, g-cancellable, pushback, sober 1, temple crumple on CH but backdash vulnerable, no followups. Use to poke, track stomach, beat abare from +4, create distance, demoralize, brainfuck, taunt, sober 1+.

: Kills guard, evade and backdash. Never guess a throw direction again! Long reach, anti-backdash, anti-guard, recovers in takedown but throw vulnerable, attack vulnerable*, no followups, trivial damage if takedown is escaped. Use to beat guard, beat evade, beat backdash, punish whiffs, oki.

: Special High. Kills LP and backdash. Guess wrong and retain the advantage if the opponent blocks! Long reach, anti-backdash, anti-low (beats low punch from -8), floor scrape, +2 on block, float on NH, sober 1 but slow, linear, no followups, CH counts as air hit*. Use to gamble, pressure, damage, abare, beat (crouch?)backdash, beat throws, punish whiffs, close distance, oki, floor scrape, sober 1+.

: The swiss army knife of CH floaters. Mid, long reach, high circular sideturn/mid force crouch followups, takedown cancelable, combo on NH, float on CH, stagger float on crouch hit but linear*. Use to damage crouching, force crouch, beat (crouch)backdash up close, beat abare from +4, punish -16 crouching, sideturn*, punish crouching whiffs, close distance, create distance*, oki, brainfuck.

: Just -1 on sideblock. Evade spam X infinity. Also anti-backdash & wall splat tool. The pushback is massive too. Mid, long reach, anti-backdash, pushback, knock down on NH, crumple on side hit but linear, no followups. Use to damage sideturned, KD, wall splat, beat (crouch)backdash, beat side abare, punish whiffs, close distance, create distance, demoralize.

Staple Moves:

or or : Average throw damage. Fast, anti-evade, anti-guard but short reach, backdash vulnerable, attack vulnerable, no followups, escapable. Use to beat guard, beat evade, punish -10 standing.

: Better options than the DS jab. Fast, high/high/mid followups, +2 on block, combo on NH (more vs Taka or sideturned), +8 on CH but high, linear. Use to interrupt, poke, pressure, punish -12 standing.

: Complements qcf+k tracking. Subs for jab when you can spare the 4f. Long reach, tracks back, high* KD followup, -5 on block, sober 1, combo on CH/RH but high, backdash vulnerable. Use to poke, pressure, track back, sober 1.

: Good reach, hitchekable, delayble. No downsides really. Mid, long reach, high KD/mid sober (pushback?) followup, -4 on block, combo on hit, +6 on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear. Use to pressure, KD, low wall splat, punish whiffs, create distance*, sober* 1.

: Basic interrupt move. Fast, anti-high, recovers low, -5 on block, +7 on CH but special low, short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, trivial damage. Use to interrupt, poke, abare, punish -12 lows, chip.

: It's a safe low poke, a rarity. Substitute for low punch whenever possible. Just don't abare after NH. Long reach, tracks stomach, anti-high, recovers low but slow, no followups, -4 on NH, trivial damage. Use to gamble, abare, track stomach, close distance, chip.

Situational moves:

: Subs for p+k when you need the 2f; subs for f+p,k to punish lows. Fast, mid, high (KD) followups, -4 on block, combo on NH, +7 on CH but short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear. Use to interrupt, poke, KD, punish -14 lows.

: Anti-shenanigans. Mid, high track back sober/mid track stomach IS-cancellable followup, floor scrape, -5 on block, combo on NH, back dash stagger, crumple on side CH but backdash vulnerable, linear*. Use to poke, backdash stagger, beat side abare, floor scrape, sober* 1.

: Basic high risk/high reward mid floater. Mid, anti-low* (beats low punch from -3), float on NH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, -15 on block. Use to risk, damage, abare, beat abare from +5, beat throws, punish -17 (standing?), demoralize.

: Hitcheckable mini-float starter. Mid, mid throw-punishable faceplant sober followup, combo on NH but backdash vulnerable, linear. Use to pressure, damage, beat abare from +7, beat throws, sober* 1.

: Low. Anti-mid/high sabaki. Decent anti-backdash too. Somewhat hard to punish as well. Long reach, anti-backdash*, high sober 2 KD followup, combo on CH but linear, -14 on block*. Use to risk, beat (crouch)backdash, close distance, sober* 2.

: Low. Subs for b+p or d+k when you can spare the 5f. Long reach, tracks back, hit-throw on CH but no followups, -15 on block. Use to risk, track back, beat (crouch)backdash up close, beat abare from +9, space.

Decent moves:

: No real downside except being a high-high string. Fast, long reach, tracks stomach, high sober 2 KD followup, combo on CH/RH (more vs taka) but high, -2 on NH. Use to interrupt, poke, track stomach, beat backdash up close, beat throws, punish taka's -15 standing, punish standing whiffs, sober* 2.

: Special high. Bait and input after backdash. Tracks stomach, hit-throw on NH, sober 1 but backdash vulnerable, no followups. Use to damage, (abare?), track stomach, switch sides, sober 1.

: Not completely overshadowed by df+p+k due to swapping sides with the opponent. Mid, sober hit-throw on NH (swaps sides) but short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, hit-throw may whiff at range. Use to damage, beat throws, beat abare from +5, switch sides, sober* 1.

: NH intruder step punch is apparently uninterruptible. If not i'd rank this as a redundant move. Mid, long reach, anti-backdash, pushback, wall stagger, +7 on CH* but linear, no followups*. Use to poke, wall stagger, beat (crouch)backdash, create distance.

: Not obsolete due to switching to DS - but why would you want to do that?! Mid, long reach, -2 on block, stagger on NH, anti-sabaki but linear, no followups, switches to DS. Use to side pressure, stagger, beat (crouch)backdash up close, punish whiffs, close distance*, floor scrape, switch styles.

: 3-moves-in-1, all of them slow. Mid, long reach, evasive (back sway), even & pushback/stagger/-1 on block, chargeable, low cancellable, KD/stomach/foot crumple on NH, sober 1/2/0 but slow/sluggish/sluggish, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, side pressure, KD & wallsplat/damage, abare*, create distance, brainfuck, sober 1+.

: Overshadowed by uf+p. Still damaging enough to see regular play. Mid, long reach, anti-low (beats low punch from +2), -3 on block, pushback, float on NH, heavy bound on air hit but slow, linear, no followups, float may whiff at range, CH counts as air hit*. Use to gamble, side pressure, damage, abare, beat (crouch)backdash up close, beat throws, punish whiffs, close distance, create distance, oki, demoralize.

: Same risk as the DS version - but a lot more reward! Crouchbackdash > leg bomber yields similar effects. Still overshadowed by backdash > uf+p. Mid, long reach, evasive (built-in cancellable backdash), chargeable, cancellable (to DS), stomach crumple on NH but sluggish, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, damage, abare, create distance*, brainfuck, taunt.

Extraneous moves:

: Vs Taka or near walls only. Long reach, anti-backdash, +2 on block, blast back on NH (more near walls/vs taka), sober 1 but high, linear, no followups, pushback. Use to poke, pressure, KD, beat backdash, close distance, sober 1, taunt.

: Special High. Will get you killed vs any player with working reflexes and/or ECD input skills. Long reach, anti-backdash, fullcircular, anti-low*, +4 on block, sober 2, sideturn +9 on NH, sideturn +12 on CH but sluggish, no followups, pushback. Use to gamble, pressure, beat evade, close distance, oki, sober 2.

: Overshadowed by p+k and f,f+k+g; why wall stagger when you can wall splat from 1f more? Fast, mid, long reach, anti-backdash, wall stagger, +6 on CH but linear, no followups. Use to interrupt, beat (crouch)backdash, wall stagger, close distance, taunt.

: Overshadowed by hcf+k; f,f+k and df+p+k. Mid, anti-high (?), fallback float on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to abare (?), beat abare from +4.

: Overshadowed by f,f+k crouch stagger to punish non-Taka lows. Mid, high sober 2 KD followup, combo on RH/crouch guard but short reach, backdash vulnerable, linear, -2 on NH, trivial damage on CH. Use to damage crouching, punish -16 crouching, sober* 2.

: Overshadowed by f,f+k. Mid, long reach, hit-throw on CH but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to beat abare from +6.

: Overshadowed by df+p+k. Float filler. Mid, -3 on block, sober 1, force crouch +9 on CH, light bound on air hit but backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups, trivial damage*. Use to beat side abare, chip, sober 1.

: Shorter range than the DS version. Overshadowed by db+k+g. Mid, long reach, slam float on NH but slow, backdash vulnerable, linear, no followups. Use to gamble, damage, beat throws, punish whiffs.

or : Low. Input error for db+p. Round ender. Long reach, anti-high, recovers low but linear, no followups, -15 on block, -6 on NH, trivial damage. Use to risk, abare, side wall stagger, chip, taunt.

Please let me know if i forgot to mention a move's attribute or if my apprehension of a move's usefulness is still skewed. I've incorporated a lot of feedback since the first time.

...OK, you can't see it since i've been progressively modifying the previous list to incorporate feedback but, for example, remember my initial outlook on DS ? I used to think it's just an OK move but now i've seen the light. Same deal with OS . So fire away.

 

Very nice job erdaug i m actually on my phone and i read only ds. I guess everthing is good, u just didn t mention that 1p+k on rch is a wall stagger. I ll check the rest later iand if u permitt it i ll use it for the wiki coz ur english is far better than mmine

 

Hey everyone, i just learned that, contrary to what i thought, DS no longer sabakis HK in this version; can i resume my rant about how VF5 vanilla sabakis were better?

 

You mean in the game where they clash with a throw ?

 

@erdraug yeah rant away, but know that no one will hear your cries...and no one will care.

Also that's like plainly known to anyone that played her in Vanilla, but I hate the fact that 66p is linear now. That's the worst nerf to DS imo

 

Interesting. AFAIK DS was used sparingly in vanilla; i fail to see how it could gain in popularity in this version, had it retained its tracking. Could some one please enlighten me why this is considered a big nerf?

 

At the risk of continuing to play devil's advocate: So... isn't DS the move that got REALLY nerfed then?

Consider:

1. It used to kill evade: as you mention, no longer the case.
2. It was useful in okizeme: trying to time other moves as meaty is more rewarding now.
3. It was useful as anti-sabaki/reversal: new shoulder ram is faster, does more damage.
   
4. It used to kill backdash: nailing the opponent with a is more rewarding now (and the range difference is not that big).

The way i see it, at least still has a use as DS vane's only crouch stagger move.

Besides, I think the idea is that if DS vanessa thinks the opponent will evade to her stomach she's supposed to go for broke with DS , right?

 

You mean half circular.

and it would have been a low risk low reward move at best, just like 6P was and still is. hardly worth calling it the worst DS nerf IMHO.

 

Pro tip: Delayed 3P+K defeats both directions for maximum glory for the blood gods.

 

Yeah...if your opponent sucks.

 

After watching the latest NYC stream i am convinced DS is an underrated move:

• It's DS vane's fastest KD on NH move.
• It's DS vane's only KD on NH mid until 22f (AFAIK DS ht-throw does not work from a distance)
• It has a funky hitbox, beating attacks when it shouldn't! According to my notes it beats low punch from -2 but godoku has demonstrated that (if vanessa is at the correct distance) it can beat other attacks too.

Has anyone else managed to use the move successfully? Any feedback would be welcome.