Um VF4 NOT to be best looking fighter?????

Re: vf4 vs doa3

"There's no way Genesis can take on Nintendo."
"There's no way Playstation can beat Sega and Nintendo."

Sound familiar? Though I wouldn't mind if Sony gets their ass rocked either.

--------------
Formerly known as Fogira Four

 

Re: vf4 vs doa3

i'll say this:

xbox WILL beat ps2!

$5 on that!


fuck spelling!

 

Thats already incoorect dude, The X-Box is more powerful than the N2 hands down. The technology behind the N2 is powered by PVR second gen, which was about as powerful as the original Geforce, it came out around the same time. Pairing two of them for SLI performance you get about 1.5x-2x the performance. The Geforce 3 which the X box is based on is roughly the performance of two geforce 2's. X-Box has greater memory, faster processor, and more powerful 3d chip. Hands down in raw power the X-Box is more powerful than N2.

CrewNYC

 

Re: DoA3 movie impressions

Have any of you played the MGS2 demo yet?

I just spent a few minuites with it (basically watching the intro) and I have to say that this is the most visually impressive video game I have ever seen, hands down. It's not so much that the characters/environment are so amazingly detailed, it's all the other things they took the time to include. the wind, the rain, the waves around the ship. It's so rich with life. Now I know why kojima talked about "modeling the air".

what I just saw totally surpasses the DOA demo in so may ways.

I'd recommend going out and getting this ASAP. It reassures me about VF4 after all my doubts. This is the first thing to really scratch the surface of the PS2, IMO. This is what they were talking about when they called it the "emotion engine"; it surpasses polygons and specs... it's like a real place. I didn't think it would be this good. BTW, I'm not a sony fan at all.

spotlight

 

Actually at high levels Tekken is played very similarly to VF. Strings are rarely used...three to four hits at *most*. A big part of the gameplay consist of pokes, throws, counters, staggers, throws, escaping and okizeme. And of course there are the juggles, which in my opinion seem harder to pull off than VF air combos. However, the difference between Tekken and VF is that the gameplay engine in Tekken doesn't seem to be built specifically to do those things. The lack of a method to cancel, buffer and the weak 3D movement input system makes a strong case for this.

DOA2's engine, on the other hand, is built entirely around the reversal-throw-juggle gameplay that Myke alluded to. And that's why DOA2's gameplay is so focused; it's like a well crafted book where every detail seems to support an over-arching theme.

As for all these Xbox, N2 and PS2 comments...I'm obviously a little bit behind in the information curve, but it seems to me that the PS2 simply has too much momentum to fail. If PS2 splits the market with the Xbox that would be considered a failure for Sony but honestly I don't see that happening. I would be surprised if Xbox can make an impact in the Japanese market, although I will concede that Microsoft has a window to split the American and European markets with Sony.

Forget GameCube, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the GC will end up serving a niche market. It's a little ironic but among Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo it seems clear to me that Nintendo is the most content in concentrating on improving its bottom line--hence the emphasis on GBA and proprietory format of the GC. Sony and Microsoft are taking larger risks for a potentially larger market--the quasi home multimedia/gaming console market. It's as though Nintendo is not even competing with Sony or Microsoft; profit is a higher priority than market share. Note that this observation has nothing to do with the entertainment value that a gamer can get from buying a GC and playing Miyamoto's masterpieces.

As for the N2 vs Xbox comparison...again, I don't know too much about the details. Isn't the Xbox supposed to launch 2002? Isn't the hardware technically still in the conceptual and not production stages? Xbox's performance seems a little theoretical; a case of potential waiting to be fulfilled. The performance and potential of the N2, on the other hand, is assured. You know you're going to get what was promised. Just look at DOA3 and VF4...to me, the technical gap between the two is enormous and the Xbox is supposed to be hands down more powerful than N2? It's simply not that cut and dry.

Finally, I have no doubt that the PS2 is a great piece of hardware and a lot more powerful than its rabid detractors would give it credit for. However, in the case of MGS2 I really think its a more of a matter of Kojima's programming prowess than the strength of the hardware. I recall Kojima complaining about the difficulty in programming for the PS2.

 

Re: High level Tekken play?

If you're referring to three or four hits from the 10-hit strings, then ok, but I would go as far as to say that at high levels, you won't see any part of a 10-hit string used at all.

I'm thinking of characters like Hwoarang mostly...(covering my bases).

I have to disagree on the throwing. From my experiences, throws play such a minor role in the overall scheme of things. The reason being is that most throws can be escaped upon reaction, provided you're fast enough, and when you play the tekken guys I've played (bloody maniacs), it's almost impossible to throw them.

Punch counter -> throw is what I'm mainly thinking about (e.g. 1 -> 1+3 without letting go of the 1). I mean, the parallel in VF3 is the PK(G) -> throw. Against some crazy players with super reflexes they can almost always throw you first but overall I'd say it's something useful to keep in your arsenal once in a while. In Tekken it's a lot easier to escape since it's only 1 or 2 and a lot of players escape accidentally.

The other important factor is that since a vast majority of attacks are uncounterable, you just don't get the same amount of throw opportunities in a typical match as you would in VF.

True, true, again I was just trying to cover my bases. For some characters (e.g. King) throwing is incredibly important. It's also important to keep in mind that throws in Tekken are catch throws in VF. In some situations a throw will actually *interrupt* an attack. So in certain situations throws can be quite useful in Tekken.

You've got to be kidding me. I would say it's definitely the opposite. Every character has their standard launch attack which, ordinarily, doesn't require any special circumstance (mC, MC) to produce a float high enough to allow for a damaging juggle followup. You don't have any stance or terrain considerations either. You just pop them up and the same air combo will work, very easily, every time. And then there's the re-float factor which only helps the juggle festivities that tekken is reknown for.

Nope, I ain't kidding. Some of the 5-star combos in TTT just seem so impossible to pull off. Maybe my motor reflexes are more attuned to VF, I don't know. The big difference between the two, however, is that in TTT the 5-star combos are often the ones that take the most damage. Not true in VF3.

I wouldn't call the 3D movement input system weak. The input is fine, it's just that the implementation of the actual dodge, and it's ability to actually avoid linear attacks, leaves a lot to be desired. You'd swear some attacks had heat seeking properties.

When I was writing my original post I was wondering whether I should include the word "input"...first, to me the input is quite clunky and I prefer the E button over it. The thing is in certain situations (mostly against some powerful, uncounterable moves if blocked) escaping in TTT is critical. To take your experience with the effectiveness of 3D movement in VF3 to TTT is unfair...obviously both games will place different emphasis on 3D movement. The question is how that 3D movement is implemented. I hate the U and D system since it often interferes with the attack you're attempting to pull off next--it's a similar complaint that I have with DOA2's system and part of the reason why I'm wary of VF4's return to a 3 button set up.

I know it looks like I'm just picking apart your post, but coming from a place where there's a strong TTT scene, I just felt that I'd share the high level play I've experienced and observed.

Oh that's alright. A lot of Tekken players like to comment on VF and a lot of VF players like to comment on Tekken without both sides really giving either game a fair shake so I welcome any time someone who plays both to write their thoughts.

I appreciate that your area has high level Tekken players but I've also seen what high level Tekken play is like. In fact when I was in Japan (uh-oh, another reference to Japan) I took the time to watch what hardcore Tekken play looks like in Japan. The level of play at the last E3 for TTT was also quite high and I took the time to play against some of those players. Had a bit of trouble playing with controllers though.

 

No way the XBOX certainly hasn't got more Memory . Naomi2 has around 100 MB memory or more(33 VRAM) XBOX only 64(okay with S3TC). And Naomi 2 is also equiped with several Co-processors(including Transformation and Lightning Co processor). It isn't enough to talk only about the graphic processor to judge the overall board preformance.....

 

Don't forget ther are two Power VR2 Graphic Processors.

cya

 

Re: vf4 vs doa3

as i said, there is no doubt xbox will kill.
much much much better technology. very very very good management. much much better developer support. they treat developers much much better. much much easier/cheaper/faster to develop for. incredibly great games (sega will have 11 launch titles. wooh!) built in modem for online gaming. built in harddrive. will spend 500 million on advertising in first 18 months. ms is prepared to post loses up to 1 billion on this just so they can get it out there and destroy everyone else.
i could go on but wtf, does anyone listen?
seems like whenever i post something there are a few that automatically disagree at first. lol ;P
peace...
















out!

 

First of all no the Naomi2 does NOT have more texture memory

Heres how the Noami 2's memory is split:

Main Memory: 32Mbyte
Graphic Memory: 32Mbyte
Model Data Memory: 32Mbyte

Main memory to load game data
Graphic Memory to load textures
Model Data to load polygons and game environment

The X-Box uses 64MB Texture memory and a 10GB HD to load game data and models!!

The N2 also uses a SH4 128bit RISC CPU (much less powerful than the rumored PIII 700 spec that MIcrosoft is using)

The last element the GPU is about 2X as powerful as the N2 PVR2 Sli setup. The X-Box is no joke from a hardware point of view.

CrewNYC

 

What happened to all that stuff about deferred rendering? Isn't N2's use of infinite planes makes it much more efficient than other comparative, traditional methods?

 

Re: vf4 vs doa3

How pathetic.

I thought we were above system wars.

Sorry to single you out jtx. There are others just as culpable, but this seems to be the first post that turned an interesting discussion about potentially worthy competition to something which is at best speculation based on things like system specs, and at worst, something along the lines of "tool-age."

-Jason

 

I think that tekken has a major fault which was caused by the inferior tech it was developed on. This fault is collision detection.

Tekken has so many collision faults that when played at a high level and using a lot of side steps all sorts of collision problems occur. Many times you connect with the opponent when there is about 50cm distance between the palm and the other character. When you side step many times the opponent will hit you even if his attack did not connect.

Concerning the floaters. Floater in tekken are easier to do than in VF. This is mainly because many combinations consist of just button presses with little direcional inputs. Sidesteps can be done effectively and can result in a step similar to KS.

Both games are good and are only truly appreciated when played at a high level. But this is where the problems begin. At a high level one can find some errors in both games. And collision detection is the major pain here. To me this is the major reason why VF is more of a fighting game than tekken.

Experts who play at high level do not like to have a game compromised by code faults and this is why tekken can never be considered(until now) a good high level beat-em-up.
Maybe tekken4 will change that. I know that this seems as if I am butchering Tekken but after so many hours of play those things get really annoying and ruin the game. VF also has its faults but they are minimal when compared to tekken. Anyway VF was always meant for the hardcore players while Tekken was directed more towards the mainstream.

On the N2 vs XBOX subject. N2 has 32megs of texture RAM which can be compressed at an average of 8:1 which gives 256megs of texture ram while XBOX has 64megs which have to be shared between sound gamecode geometry textures and OS. If the available RAM for textures is 40megs that would give us 40*6=240 megs so it is smaller than N2 but not by much.

Polygon pushing abilities are in favour of N2 when using six or more local lights such as spot lights but N2 is limited to about 12million/sec regardless of effects while XBOX can go up to about 30-40million with 1-2 lights and several effects.

Effect wise XBOX has no contestant as of now. So both systems are close to each other with the advantage going to XBOX when pixel shaders or high res are used.

CIN

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by CIN on 03/31/01 04:48 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

honestly, 1 month ago I read an interview with team Ninja. They said they would like to devellop DA3 on N2 no joke!!!! official famitsu interview. That shows that they were interested in the NS board. Strangely if you look at the time table and at the progress on the DA3 XBOX Version they were already producing the XBOX version, strange, i don't understand a heck of a thing!!!!!!!.
Your arguments are all very objective and interesting, i will ask my informatics friend he should understand some crutial differences. I will judge when I see the two versions, because I trust my eyes the most.
It would be stupid from Sega to devellop N2 if it's only a little more powerfull then the N1..........the tecnical specs that Uk-kid posted 2 months ago were very complete and interesting..........and I hope Sega will port VF4 on the XBOX, why no anouncement at the TGS(7 hidden titels). This is politics probably Sega will anounce the XBOX version after the PS2 release , so Sony doesn't get to angry.....

and what will happen to the XBOX now, will the XBOX have a compatible arcadeboard sometime soon, will there be a DA3 N2 arcade version, will there be no DA3 arcade version,......it's getting more interesting every second.....

cya

 

Re: vf4 vs doa3

first of all, we're basically talking about best looking fighters, and this thing is on the xbox, and some are comparing it to vf4 which is announced for ps2 and also runs on naomi2. so this is definetly germane.

the hardware potential has an incredible amount to do with which one will be graphically superior. and another thing, the (perceived or real) popularity of a system determines where developers go, so it is of interest which one will win generation wars. if ps2 wins it, then thats going to determine the hardware they will have to deal with. things like built in harddrive and modem will effect gameplay too
there is an incredible amount of difference between the 2 systems, which ive noted i more than once.

i think its 'pathetic' that you are too short sighted to realize the above. i also think its funny how on one hand you kinda seem laid back, but really all youre doing is pouncing onto the scene to say 'PATHETIC!' and a discussion doesnt hurt anyone. on top of that, you havent contributed ANYTHINH to this thread at all. are we all here to tailor make an entertaining little thread for you, jason?

i am very interested in the hardware and management/business strategies behind game companies because i think a lot can be learned from it.

"at best is speculation based on things like system specs, and at worst, something along the lines of "tool-age.""
this is just really stupid. there is a lot known about the hardware of both systems, even n2 for that matter. the specs and all known knowledge plus the ability to comprehend and think, plus (hopefully) discussion which contributes information (unfortunately were not getting that much here) can yeild a hell of a lot of interesting info.

also, you dont HAVE to read it. in combination with that, i think its interesting why you felt the need to burst on the scene to shout pathetic, since there is nothing stopping this from becoming a good discussion (atleast to me) if people 1. add cool interesting information and 2. bring up interesting points. any moaning zombies who show up to peashoot little maringally contributive statements arent my fault.

just because you dont find the hardware and business planning of game systems interestig yourself, doesnt mean it is pathetic.
a discussion on the hardware and business plan behind video game machines CAN believe it or not contribute information and be interesting if that is what the people disussing make it.
good day to you sir! :-D

 

On the N2 vs XBOX subject. N2 has 32megs of texture RAM which can be compressed at an average of 8:1 which gives 256megs of texture ram while XBOX has 64megs which have to be shared between sound gamecode geometry textures and OS. If the available RAM for textures is 40megs that would give us 40*6=240 megs so it is smaller than N2 but not by much.

Exactly Andy. Naomi's strength was always is texture compression - 8 : 1 ratio, so it pretty much does have 256 megs of texture ram!

Also Naomi has tile based rendering technology (exclusive to PowerVR), which saves MAD FILL RATE, when compared with other graphic rendering methods.

<font color=red>Jyunen hayaindayo!</font color=red>

<font color=white>adam</font color=white><font color=red>YUKI</font color=red>

 

unfortunately, from the screenshots they dont seem to be designing the stages to take advantage of the tile rendering that much. (yah, they could change the stages.)
doas room within a room levels would put tile rendering to better use.
tile rendering is one of the best features out there. it doesnt help save filrate when there arent big objects being obstructed.

cant ms or nvidia license whatever is a good compression method for xbox? its 8 to 1 in hardware? buying better method would probably be cheaper than upping the specs, and they have already done that (upped the hd i think.)

dont forget that n2 is arcade and xbox is home. youre gonna be able to play xbox a lot more. im excited about xbox cuz its the only console so far with no real flaws, dc doesnt have any ones either (besides low ram by todays standards, which can be forgivin, and will always be a prob for hw) but i count lack of advertising budget as a flaw for that one.

does xbox have some kind of insane bandwidth to stream textures in (like what could have saved ps2.)
thats what agp is supposed to do isnt it.

its gonna be interesting to see what the japanese developers can come up with for the vertex shaders. when i heard about them and i thought only us pc devs would be developing for it, i thought what a waste.
what if they can do it to make things look prettier, overcoming mem limits. like randomized grass. or walls. or anything. oh, but then the walls would change every time the viewpoint turned around. lol. maybe on a small scale up close then. or maybe they could store the number seed. i dunno.
peace. out. jtx

 

how would doing T&L calculations ever run in (anything resembling) sli? how would you do it so it wouldnt be a duplication of work.
there must be one gpu for n2 and the pvrs just do rendering. or i dunno and theyre geniuses