Version C Tier List

I recall Shun being S+ in Version B because of his sabaki. In Version C his sabaki now hits high and has slightly more disadvantage. He moved down quite a bit on the tier list just because of that one change I think. I do believe that shun still has better tools then Lau but I believe Lau is capable of doing more dmg easily (namely lau 6p+k which is safe and can do 70pts of dmg). Shun can do that as well with chowan but he needs drinks before hand to up his dmg.

 

fulan, i am being sarcastic. I know he doesn't have a full circular mid, but i also don't play blindfolded, nor do i search out kyus. so, there.

 

Srider you might be right. I do have Akira mentality when playing Kage. I guess I need to apply a little more subtlety and tricks than trying to land that big combo.

 

Myke, everybody knows certain DM attacks are better than others. You're one of the few who believe that because they all have their "pros and cons" that they are on the same level of effectiveness anyway. I agree with you on the "pros and cons" theory but think about it: If Move-A has more pros and less cons than Move-B, wouldn't that make Move-A better than Move-B?
Or are you saying they all have the same amount of "pros and cons"?

The consistency of Kage's 9K+G isn't that great </div></div> Compared to what? The comparison was Lau's 9P, you know, that move that goes OVER low sweeps and DOES NOT connect as much as Kage's 9K+G against low attacks.

Yes, I'll give you that but let's not forget to take into account the huge range difference between these moves.

Movelist comparison is how some people select their characters.
I agree that "characters are not meant to be the same" but, again, if Character-A has a better throw/attack game than Character-B, ummm, sorry bro, Character-A is stonger than Character-B.

"Let's see: more options that are faster, safer and more damaging, hmm, I think Character-A is my guy"
For some players, the choice is that simple. *Disclaimer: I am NOT saying that is why ANYBODY here who plays with Kage has chosen Kage as their main.*

Dude, no. He might have done a good job at distilling Kage's weaknesses but not his strengths.

 

Gernburgs agrees with Tony...

That video that KOD posted is the exact BS I'm talking about though. Where the Kage player does a TFT to you but doesn't go for max damage and just tries to jab you through the air as far as possible to get a ring out (and that Eileen player really was basically in the middle of the ring.) Go ahead and do the TFT to me, totally fine with me. But don't do the TFT and then do a weak-ass 10dmg combo just to ring me out for the auto-win, that's cheap. That's the definition of cheap in VF5 to me...

And Kages DMPK is super fast and pushes back so looking at the frame data alone is misleading. Moves with push-back basically reduce your disadvantage because your opponent has to close some distance before they can hit you. For example, with Lion again, his 44P+K literally gives you like +20 frames to play with but because your opponent is reeling back and you have to dash in pretty far to hit them it's actually VERY hard to combo off of it unless their back is right against the wall.

1. It's the stat advantages in his move-list that Kage has. Such as the subtle differences between similar moves between him and Lau as posted above.

2. Kage has tricky moves, tricky animations and it can be very hard to tell which move is actually coming at you until it's too late. A good example is his dashing sweep and his move where he turns BT and does a forward flip that hits you mid. Both of these moves look very similar until it's almost too late to react.

3. TFT and EASY-ass ring outs...

4. Good throw game in addition to the TFT with a NASTY catch throw and other deceptive throws from stance and BT...

5. Intangible advantage. The above advantages combine into another overall intangible advantage because he has so many options you have to honor. By honor I mean change your game subtly to defend against the many dangerous options you know he has...

Once again, this is ONLY MY OPINION but I'm absolutely sure there are many players out there who agree with me.

 

Unfortunately I cant chime in on this as I have only played several Kages and mostly have no problem with them. I will say this argument is classic and I am just waiting for that dude that gets banned every other month to jump in and spam!

 

Yes folks you heard it here! The Shoutbox Shakedown the only
continuous online VF tournament on VFDC. You can play a few of
the most dedicated players on VFDC and one of the worst. The
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*See Sig

 

Hmmmm...

<span style='font-size: 8pt'>*thinks that X vs. Kage thread should be in order...*

*also thinks that X vs. X threads should exist for all characters*

*is disappointed*[/size]</span>

 

Also,
Because I use him as my main, I vote we move Lei Fei down to a C Tier, this will make me feel better about myself and my skills when I win matches. If we can agree to this, I promise to stop attacking on stagger, as part of the negotiation process. thanks.

 

Who, Shang? I never ran across him but I read his posts in the "Kage is So Broken" thread. I really must say he is one of the most brutal flame-masters I've ever come across online. I don't think anyone wants to go head up in a flame war with the Shangster.

He's probably better at flaming people on internet boards than he is at VF and he's pretty good LOL...

 

Back to the topic,
can anyone recommend the Lau players??
I strongly push " BETABOW" !!

Moreover, any good Kage player?
I push "Monty" and "Myke", both of them are very tough to deal~

 

The reason why Kage players jump into threads like this is because there are people like Greenburgs who want to feel better about losing to Kages by pointing to a tier list. This is exactly why I play Jeffry - to shut people like him up.

Anyway, the comparison between Kage's and Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is RIDICULOUS. I even thought it was sarcastic at first. Those two moves are used in completely different manners; Kage's is to get damage on anticipated counter hit, Lau's is to get damage when the opponent whiffs. (Hint: Lau can continue to /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif after.)

BTW while Kage is my #1, Lau is my #2; I have played both plenty and I think both are plenty strong. A move-to-move comparison is just not very helpful because characters are played in different ways and that is true for Kage and Lau. Lau doesn't have a Kage /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif comparison move, but he doesn't need one. Does Kage have an equivalent to Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/u.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif? Heck, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif?

I am glad to see players like Srider and Konjou trying Kage out. When playing against good Kage players, Kage might seem really strong...but when you play him yourself on a serious level you quickly realize that the character has his limitations.

Overall, and ESPECIALLY at our level of play/skill, VF is a very balanced game. To complain about character strength/weakness is just sour grapes.

 

Mmm, I would say Lau's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif can be used like Kage's /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /devil's advocate.

Nah, I agree whole-heartily with ice-9 on this one. On the entire post.

 

Jeffry is low tier...but he will rape you <3

 

While true, it certainly doesnt help that far too often frame-situation in VF5 doesnt even apply because of hitbox issues. "Yea I got +4 but so what since my fast attacks arent even connecting and I get launched by this slow launcher". The more I have become aware of this, the more you hear me moaning. Sega should definitely do something about this in R. Plus theres the online that misleads beginners!

ps. I know I play Akira and Sarah, not because they would be too good, but because I enjoy playing them and watching them being played. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

Please just stop accusing people of complaining, as that is not the point of the discussion. This is a good example of useful information being passed off as rant and complaint when it's not. The discussion stemmed from someone wanting to know why Lau is not given as high of a rank on the tier list, and people are explaining why to support the published data.

I'm not gonna do a point by point break down about Myke and Ice-9's post but here are some biggies.

Upper is not mainly used for punishing whiffs, and Lau players will do 2_3P6P instead of the PPP series as the followup, yes it gives you a decent amount of dmg, it puts Lau in a high disadvantageous situation (sure Kage has no options at +4, Lau has dmg and goes in -6 and can't fuzzy). People can make the same 'narrow minded' argument in leaving that part out. Lau's P series also does NOT force guard anymore. It's been that way since FT iirc. Also, I'm not just trying Kage out, been playing him regularly for half year in the arcades now, so some of their differences are pretty obvious to me now.

Myke and Ice-9 are right in saying that Lau and Kage's moves are used in different situation, so it's not fair in doing comparisons of the same moves. While I also wouldn't personally do an exact comparison, and this is why I only pointed out what useful tools Kage has access to and that Lau does not. This is the basis of my argument, that Kage has much tools for a variety of situations with high utility but trading off in dmg compared to Lau, who doesn't have nearly the same amount of tools with equal utility, but are potentially more damaging. In the grand scheme of things, Kage is on a higher tier than Lau due to this. I still think there is merit in people simply comparing moves in itself just to get an idea.

If we want to compare moves used in similar situations, that's fine too.

Counter hit for damage
Lau - 6P+K - Slower, hits less often, more possible damage.
Kage - 2_3P - Much faster, hits more often, less possible damage.

Punishing whiffs (Crouch)
Lau - 2_3P6P - 15 frames high attack, more dmg, -6 on guard.
Kage - PP4P - 11 frames high attack, less dmg, +1 on guard.

You can do throws as well, but I'm not going to go into that discussion as Kage easily beats Lau's throw selection.

Evasive mid launcher
Lau - 4P+K - Slow mid with some high level evasiveness, more damage requires hit check.
Kage - 3P - Slow mid with very good high level evasiveness, less damage requires hit check.

Short range evasive attack
Lau - 1P+K - 23 frames exe mid, no combo, -9 on guard.
Lau - 8KK - 24 frames exe mid, inconsistent evasive ability, second part must be hit checked, -6 on guard, no combo.
Kage - 44K - 15 frames exe high, good follow up combo, +1 on guard, knocks down on any hit.

Jumping attack
Lau - 9P - Faster exe mid, consistently whiffs over low kicks, short range, dis adv on guard.
Lau - 9K - Slow exe mid, used at long range, -15 on guard.
Kage - 9K+G - Slower exe mid, more consistent performance, can be used at both short and long range, even on guard.

Whiffed evade (also +14) tool
Lau - 46P - 14 frame high, good dmg with combo, -5 on guard.
Kage - PP4P - 11 frame, less dmg with no combo just +3, +1 on guard.

Low attack
Lau - 2K+G - Half circular, knocks down on any hit, no combo, -18 on guard.
Kage - 44K+G - Linear, longer range, combo on CH only, leaves kage backturned, -12 on guard.

Mid range whiff punisher
Lau - 3P+K - 20 frames mid, combo
Kage - 6K+G - 21 frames mid, combo


So yeah, maybe someone else can do a commentary on all these. I don't want to do it cause Kage players will just claim that I'm complaining. I don't know what is the deal comparing Lau's 6PP and Kage, as Lau players don't use 6PP as much same as Kage players don't go into stance after 6P with Kage. I also can't really think of a situation where Kage and Lau have equivalents for Lau's 3PPK. It needs to be more clearly defined as 3PPK use is very specific, unlike the moves I've listed previous for Kage.

If you simply want to compare number of moves, Kage also wins by default due to more moves. I'm not going to go into details about their PK->stance game...

I think I've already touched on this before. Lau trades utility in most cases for damage. So he lands much less launchers in comparison, but deals bigger damage when they land.
Kage has much higher utility in most of his moves, but he trade them for power. Still, they are very potent in terms of damage.

For example:
Lau's 6P+K can typically get about 75-79 dmg
Kage's 2_3P can typically get about 64-67 dmg

Honestly if you play both Kage and Lau, you will see that the odds is heavily in Kage's favor. This is why the arcadia tier list is based on the character's movelist, and their moves' usefulness/frequency they hit.

This statement can be applied to any fighting game, that they are all 'balanced enough' that mathematical comparison is not the whole picture. I really think it's a case of denial to say that VF is balanced so that one character does not have advantage over another. Sure, it comes down to the player's choices, but character match up is a huge factor in high level play. To deny this is simply a case of blind faith.

 

Wow a VF player with book knowledge actually admitting this.
Wheres the rapture? And WARS MAH COOKIE for winning with Jeffry?
(I kid just jabbin those top tier players /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Thank you Srider for a VERY elegant explanation.

@Ice-9, me complaining about Kage may make me feel better about losing to him but it's painfully obvious that you also want to deny that Kage is top tier just a vehemently if not more so.

You claim I want to feel better about losing to Kage... You obviously want to feel better about winning with Kage, what's the difference???

It offends your personal idea about yourself and your ability because you want to believe that you're really, really good and you don't have any type of edge. So you accuse me of whining to try to take the air out of my point (which is really undeniable in my mind, Kage is top tier. The top Japanese players agree on that, why don't you? What do they know that you don't???) That makes you feel like you are better at the game, because admitting that the character you use is powerful would indicate that you have a handicap, and thus, aren't as good as you say...

That's why you want to put me off as ranting... It pretty much has everything to do with your ego, not any actual or factual breakdown of the game. I could give you every fact in the world and let you talk to the top players in Japan. I could let them tell you, but you would still deny it because it would be a giant blow to your fragile VF ego... You don't want to admit Kage is powerful because, somehow in your mind, it calls your skills into question, however slightly (extremely slightly which is why you should just admit it)...

The truth is the truth, you are in the great minority in your opinion of Kage not being top tier. Oddly that minority group seems to consist of one type of person only, <u>Kage players!</u>

 

Many VFers have this mythical cultish notion that VF is a perfect and balanced game. It's in sharp contrast to players of other fighting games who more or less accept that their games are not perfectly balanced, and concentrate on how to do deal with it rather.

VF1 and 2 (especially 2.0 version) were so broken and so unbalanced it was not even funny. They were probably more unbalanced than Tekken ever were. But back then people just accepted that you had to work harder with weaker characters. Things got of course much better in the later games. It's clear that VF5 is much more balanced than VF1&2 or the Tekken series. However it's ridiculous to think anything is perfect.