Version C to Evolution

It looks like someone cut his head off... like those heads people cut off in movies like braveheart.

 

Actually, Wolf's (new big bridge bomb) does 75dmg in Evo. The old one from version C is still better though, cause you can just go for afterwards (guaranteed) and get 75 dmg anyway. Since you lose the pickup option in Evo, version C's big bridge bomb was better; but not as cool looking as Evo's /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Drunken Cat:
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Good: Host of new useful moves, new throw, chouwan seems to float even higher (unconfirmed),


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Chowan is the same I believe.

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better sabaki

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What's this? Are you referring to the + which is...well, I guess a Sabaki, but I think people are STILL debating that. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Bad: New throw is annoying to input (for me it's alot more annoying than 270) and takes 3 DP, 270 throw now only adds 4 DP.


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Amen on the new throw. I wouldn't say this would "strengthen" his throwing game much at all. Also, the 270 only adding 4 DPs is a downgrade from Evo Ver A->B. It was 6 DPs in Ver A. Also, from A->B was a nice upgrade.
no longer takes off 1 DP, and knocks on the ass on an MC.

ICE:

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Wolf: Much better


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Actually VFC->EvoA I think the consensus was MUCH WORSE, then after a LOT of practice w/ teh "new wolf" and Ver B upgrades, he's much better.

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Jacky: Much worse


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Different, but stronger is the consensus on this side of the pond... at least amongst my rings.


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Shun: Much better
Better: Too many to talk about! Stance, throwing game, new attacks, etc.
Worse: Easier to lose DPs.
Wish AM2: Not have K+G push character back so far on block.


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Throwing game is SLIGHTLY better... not a big help by a long shot. More moves, yes. Easier to lose DPs, unfortunately yes, but not as bad as EVO Ver. A. (as stated above). As for the + comment -- c'mon... give us SOMETHING to work w/.

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Lion: Much worse
Better: Catch throw, semi-useful new moves. Improved f and df throws.
Worse: Loss of recovery on long range attacks. Loss of ufP+G and second poke after sabaki.
Wish AM2: Made bPP slightly combo-able? Weakened KK.


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I'll go w/ just different. Your bad points are right, but the 2nd poke after Sabaki wasn't super useful. Catch-throw is really "strong"
Better: Added mid to the already existing high/low-when-back-is-turned guessing game (this was much needed).

My Aoi additions:
Much Stronger in general (especially against Lei Fei and Akira)
Can reverse anything - as you stated. This comes in handy against Akira and Lei Fei (big time) and also Jeff, Lion, and Pai for their double-fisted fisting.
+ - finally a long ranger attack that can be mixed up (drop the ) for some good guessing games.
+ - sabaki's H/M/Elbows & PUnches. Stomach crumble on Sabaki w/ guaranteed follow ups.
Low throw guaranteed when + hits on MC
Escaping throw combo can only buffer 1 selection - so it's a 50/50 shot.
Weakened: doesn't crumbled, but replaced w/ a slower chop + that does.
Ground throws are still "guaranteed" in the same places they were, now they're just escapable, as w/ all ground throws in the game.

 

Its not guaranteed. You can struggled to avoid the +. You just have to struggle real early.

 

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Iron_Monkey_Fist said:
I didn't know Jacky's hit throw was so good.

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I think Jacky's hit throw is the best because:
1, hits mid
2, requires no counter to connect the throw
3, it's fast
4, it's totally uncounterable at -6
5, it does good damage and the timing is not difficult.
6, the animation is totally demoralizing, and the stupid sound he makes while doing d/f+pk.

I do not who else has a hit throw that has the first 4 properties. Let me know though as it would be great info.

 

The only one I can think of that even comes close is Goh's , +. That requires a counter-hit though.

 

Aoi's double palmed hit throw hits mid doesn't it? Its not that easily countered because if it's blocked it pushes/staggers also right? It doesn't come off that quick but it does kind of it's just that it's two strikes and the timing isn't difficult.

 

I'm thinking in terms of how useful the move is for the character. I rarely see Jacky's hit throw in high level matches, and I compare that to Goh where I see his hit throws all the time.

Jacky's sounds good on paper, and is cool and fun to watch. But shouldn't the best hit throw in the game be the most useful hit throw also, or are those 2 separate things? Doesn't Jacky have better attacks that he could use in the same situation instead of hit throw? I suppose Jacky can have the best hit throw in the game and not have any need to use it. And that would explain why I didn't know it was so good.

 

that's the thing Jacky has SO many awesome strikes and stuff that they kind of overshadow his hit-throw, and i'm guessing Goh doesn't. But i don't think jacky has (m)any other strikes like his hit throw, it comes out low and hits from a good distance, most of his longer range moves are higher, i think.

 

I dunno. he probably doesn't need it. it's pretty demoralizing to block a d/f+pk, try to throw and get hit by another d/f+pk,pg. hi jerky!
Soundwave: I don't think Aoi's hit throws are all that hot, harder to do, less damage, slower, not sure about recovery. Goh and her should have easier hit throws imo, especially goh.

 

Aoi's hit throws are quite good if you know how to use them.

+ - hits mid, only requires a hit, pushes opponent back when blocked, and isn't as easily dodged as a normal attack since it's got two-hits. It's especially useful on people that CD all over the place. Also useful after a YY-inashi on people that habitually duck in shady situations.

+ - much harder since it requires a counter, but nonetheless, is still a good move.

 

I've never seen anyone (human or cpu) struggle out a following a in version C. In fact, Wolf's victim doesn't even start to move as you perform . Can anyone else confirm whether or not it is guaranteed? Also, I agree with Gajin that Aoi's hit throws are extremely useful. , + is also nice after evading and mid/low crescent reversals (although it's not her best option dmg wise). , + is nice after low punches and cancelled , +.

 

I think the idea for jacky's hit throw is a risk free way to attempt to punish predicted dodges. It looks like the throw comes out quickly enough to nab the opponent before they can finish a slow dodge. You can't use f+K (no combo vs a dodger)... you can use a throw but it might be broken... and df,df+K carries a lot of risk (though damage-wise it's probably even better).

I can't see that jacky's substantially worse. My biggest disappointment is the f,f+K... it's 4 frames slower I think and it feels really sluggish. The new f+K is better than the old one even though you lose the chance at an occasional non-MC combo.

 

is 19f, thats 3f slower than the old ver.C one. I think this move was neither improved nor made worse. It executes slower but is uncounterable(back-turned only) now.

Let's see, what changed from Ver.C --> EvoB for Jacky?

Worse:
1. doesn't ever crumple now, and it executes 1f slower in EvoB.

2. is almost non-delayable now, even though its still special high and crumples on MC.

3. doesn't ever float now, and its 1f slower.

4. Knee is gone. The replacement for it is , which doesn't float high enough half the time, and it executes 1f slower on top of the more complex/slower command.

5. , is gone.

6. ,, is no longer a special high.

7. , is now half-circular, and it only does 18pts of damage, compared to a maximum of 35 in Ver.C.

8. No more followups after ,, and it leaves Jacky at -12.

9. only does 55pts of damage now, compared to a max of 65 in Ver.C.

10. Short slide shuffle cannot be cancelled as quicly as before, in fact, its almost as slow as it was in VF4 Ver.B.

Better:

1. Better . Does 45 instead of 40.

2. More moves allow Jacky to enter SSS. Too bad SSS is so slow now.

3. is uncounterable, but requires an MC to float.

4. . Fast at 15f, and beatknuckle is guaranteed on MC, uncounterable.

5. , is decent, although there are usually much better options at 18f ex.

6. Side kick is now uncounterable, but has no range.

I think thats about it. Overall. I'd say that Jacky's weaker compared to Ver.C. His throw game is roughly the same, but his strikes have been toned down a lot. Probably still a decent character but nothing like what he was in Ver.C.

 

"4. Knee is gone. The replacement for it is , which doesn't float high enough half the time, and it executes 1f slower on top of the more complex/slower command."

I'm wondering where you get your frame info from because 1/60th has the exe for d/f,d/f+K at 16f meaning it's one frame faster than before.

 

Oops... thanks for pointing that out. It should be "1f faster", not "1f slower".

 

The speed of the throw ("comes out quickly enough") is not even an issue. It's an automatic followup.

Nurr., I meant the hit/attack of course, not the throw. The attack is quick enough to hit a predicted whiffed dodge.

hmm? Hit someone out of a dodge and you get MC, f+K MC = combo.

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
hits during a dodge are normal hits, so no combo 4 u.
My test method was to have jacky dash, then dodge, then guard. I waited for the dodge and tried attacking with f+K, got a normal hit (23 pts, no float). Then to be doubly sure I did a jab and definitely hit him out of the animation. 12 pts of damage.

 

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My biggest disappointment is the f,f+K... it's 4 frames slower I think and it feels really sluggish.

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The vfdc movelist has Jacky's evo A executing in 16 frames which is the same as vf4c.

Nonetheless, I have to agree that the move feels more sluggish now & seems more easily blocked on reaction from mid/long range (which is how I was accustomed to using the move). Up close, though, the move is a WHOLE lot less telegraphed & I've had moderate success using it as sort of a poor man's SDE ( buffering the dash & waiting to pull the trigger). Keep in mind, of course, that the moderate success I speak of might have just a little to do with me & the fellas being somewhat less than elite. /versus/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

The move is indeed 19 frames now (I go by 1/60th)...

It sounds like 3 frames shouldn't matter much at all, but it does for me. 16 frames is right at the edge of a surprise attack you could toss out with only a tiny bit of advantage and still nail the opponent before their d+P hits you. For example you could do a low punch --> puntkick flowchart in ver C and it would beat any attack the opponent tried.

Now if I do low punch --> puntkick they can stuff it with their own punch or low punch. As for the backturned recovery... ehhh. That's overrated. If you get the stagger then go backturned you don't have any worthwhile guessing games you can inflict from a backturned position to take advantage of the stagger (but correct me if I'm wrong, I want the move to be useful).