VF in Belgium and The Netherlands

Yeah that was too good, haha

Yup, whine goes really well with that.

Lau's 6K+G will beat it out .

I think this'll be my last post here in a while, since I'm going to Canada tomorrow. Keep practicing!

 

Woops, you're absolutely right.
Lau's 6K+G is 15 frames.
Hhhmmm, then Brad's K+G is the fastest safe full circular.
Yeah, that has to have been it.

 

el blazes is fast and safe too, i use it a lot as poke and also as whiff punisher cause K+G has great range most of the time (and the advantage+sideturned situation is nice to play around with).i usually used jeffs the same way but over time i have noticed that the risk/reward on his is just too high most of the time as it's so slow.

i was thinking a bit about reversals.
kage/pai/vanessa/wolf/akira/lion/aoi all have them, but i never see them used in matchplay to be honest(well, very rarely).
aois yy is great but can be hit with lows, double limb and full circle attacks.
her reversals do a base damage + extra depending on the move she reverses, leading to more damage overall but you have to choose between high&mid&low.
the same goes for the other characters, the choice between high&mid and sometimes, like kage, even if the high will be a punch or kick (as he can't reverse kicks with his basic reversals). Is the whole reversal thing just more of another means to get damage you can get another way too? i mean, evading and whiff punishing with PK gives the same amount of damage, or ducking and doing the same.
the risk is just too big imho. i mean, if someone reverses jeff mid and he does a high launcher the difference between the combo damage can be around the 20 to 30(maybe even up to 40), that's a lot.
there is so much to do against reversals(delay, throw, different attacktype/height, etc) that at the end of the day i only see them usable vs patterns and set strings. for aoi it might be a punish thing, that instead of punishing on block she can punish the actual last hit with a reversal, but to be honest, i think she's pretty ok punish wise, a lot of other characters have worse options.

do you guys think there is any use to reversals outside of patterns and set strings, or do you think the risk of gambling which attack the opponant will do is worth the big damage you might get on yourself?

 

Just read the stats on that thing...
Nice. Same speed but way better other stats + sideturned.
There really is nothing Brad is actually best at is there?

And no, apart from playing Aoi there's no use to reversals, you run too much risk of eating circulars and double limbs, which only she can reverse. Well, no use, they're fun and intimidating, but generally simply too high risk.

 

there are a few reversals (high punch, a mid which I forgot which exactly it was) with a guaranteed down throw attempt.
(high punch reversal + down throw = around 60+ dmg) perhaps other characters have similare or other follow ups perhaps?
Pai's reversals tend to stagger right?

 

pai has two kinds, 4&1 gives a knockdown(+free downattack?), 6&3 gives the advantage.
the down throw is a nice extra, true, but i would still not be willing to risk the gamble if akira/leifei is on the other side countering it with a powercombo.

had a great meeting saturday guys, thanks fulan for hosting and the pizza. dead rising is regionlocked, so you'll get that back next time unused /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

@fulan: great progress dude, i think you have improved on every level. your pressuregame is very strong now and you mixup very well so it's hard to guess what you'll do. great consistant throwescaping too. your eileen is still much greater than your goh but if you learn everthing this fast i'm scared to play him next time too!

@mikeleroi: although you hadn't practised (much) your wolf is still very stable. not much new stuff, but hopefully we'll both have our games up for the nexst meeting for some more exciting matches!

@pascal: great to see you again, it was nice to play your lion now (i still think your sarah is better as you use less strings) and i hope you keep playing him as you have really got to grips with him in a short time. i'd like to mention again the thing we talked about with the situation recognition. after dinner you came back and you did it right away, seeing if my sarahs 6p was on ch or not. like i said, it's not super complicated and it's something you can learn on basis of experience and not so much on execution, so it's something i think you can get your grip around and use to make your game better (this is one aspect that is pretty hard to really practise vs ai imho). if you can recognize this situations you will be able to react much better to situations witch i usually see getting beat out of. great stuff overall though!

@sifu: nice to see you again after such a long time sifu, your vanessa was already very nice, you knew her strings and basics well, spacing and mixing was good and i think you went away from this meeting with a good plan on how to grow even further, so looking forward to playing you again next time!!

i'm looking forward to a big meeting too soon, nearly all of us have really stepped up our games in the recent months and i think this will be a great moment to start the ranking matches vort was talking about.
i propose a single ko structure, that'll keep people on their toes and keep the tourney shorter than usual. we can do a best of 5 setup to give some space for adapting and a random seating.

 

ahaha..yeah. After dinner, I suddenly was "twice the man I used to be", eh? (protip: 4 boterhammen met jam. Probeer het zelf!)
I won't claim to know how to react in those situations now, though. I think it has more to do with the fact that I know Sarah inside-out so I recognize more easily where the holes in her game are.
I mean, let's face it, Twan, I had no chance at all against your Blaze and Jeffry. You're basically doing the same (lots of short safe pokes that don't put you at disadvantage and waiting for a counterhit to start inflicting the real damage). I know what to do against Sarah, but not against those other fools. The AI doesn't use "only" safe moves with Jeffry. C'mon, that headbutt just HAS to put him at disadvantage; just look at him!!

Karim, am I getting the hang of your Eileen lately? I'm winning more and more against her every time we meet. Be careful that your increased work with Goh doesn't result in a stale Eileen. (I know that I cannot combine both Lion and Sarah, but I thought that was because I'm just a weirdo..)
You're getting predictable with certain move follow-ups and that makes me feel a lot more comfortable playing against her: you probably don't want this. (Although a host should make his guests feel comfortable, Eileen shouldn't care about this.)

Yrvin, I would have liked to play more against you. Wolf always makes me eat even the tiniest mishaps big-time so it's a great way for me to practice being more careful. More than with anyone else, against you I missed a lot of inputs to punish you; I get annoyed because of that, drop my guard a little and see myself flying around before I know it.

Sifu, it was a pleasure to play against you after so long. For someone who needed to be told about Vanessa's 3P, you really proved you knew what to do with Vanessa. Try using her more powerful throws a bit more and please, will you stop using that wild full-circular of hers every time at the exact moment as I use Lion's (slow) evade attack: it makes me look stupid.^^
Next time we meet, I also want a chance to get my revenge against Guile. Ghosts of the past need to be dealt with.

Until next time, guys! Hopefully that will be soon.

 

pascal, i think you have it a bit wrong, all moves i use with either jeff or blaze are at a disadvantage (well on block, about 60%-70% on hit), it's just that i know exactly what kind of situation i will be in if it hits or is blocked, that way i can counter your playing style easier. the headbutt of example is a move with a very large disadvantage, but because (with lion yet, anyway) you don't use the moves to pressure me in this situation i have a lot of options to counter your attacks.

i was wondering if you play with actual "setups" in mind? that you will try to bait an attack so you can start a juggle, or that you are using moves and seeing where they lead you after they hit? i can remember asking you this question before, but i can't remember the answer.
i'm asking this because when playing lion you would use PKP as a move to get into the opponant, but always, if the PK hits or was blocked you would do the last P. as the 2nd P is never guaranteed to hit, I was wondering if you had an idea where you where going with this string?

 

As you know, I'm totally not comfortable with pressure games. It's the case with 2d games and it's the case with 3d games: I'm a typical hit-and-run player. So it's just not my playstyle to work with a single punch and if I see it hits, I follow up with a 6P or a 6K to intercept anything that's coming towards me.
The moves that come the closest to what you're describing (and what you want me to do/learn) is 4k followed by a delayed punch. This works wonders, saturday was no exception. Oddly enough, 4KP are the exact same moves as the second and third attack in the PKP string. Meaning that if I start with the punch, I forget to delay the final punch. It doesn't make sense, but few things do when it comes to my playing style, right?^^
Because PK leaves me at a disadvantage (and I know that you know that), I think I just tap that extra punch to try and override an incoming lowpunch. At least, I think that that's what I'm thinking.O_O

One other tactic that proved to be quite successful was following up a quick poke with a backdash followed by 44K. 44K is Lion's most dependable launcher but because it's a high attack, it can't be used out of the blue in every situation.

I think that's about it for actual "setups". Most of my damage comes from mixing up follow-ups, sudden throws and anticipating attacks while using my charge move (the latter one was almost every time a hit!!^^).

 

there is a difference between 4KP and (P)KP though. Firstly 4K is H* and it has longer range, the P followup is guaranteed on nh and it also gives advantage on hit.
it's a great move to use at mid distance or semi-close to pressure or poke.

I understand your PKP logic too, but i think you are missing out on options here: the 2nd p is also H* keeping ofcourse keeping the opponant from 2p-ing or doing any other attack to get in between; but it doesn't keep him from ducking/evading it and getting free attacks and throwattempts. the superlong delay in the 2nd P is there to keep your opponant honest: even though you are at a frame disadvantage he cannot start his turn. through mixing the delay you can counter his evade & all attacks. looking it that way you are still at the advantage/in the offence: if the player thinks you will do the 2nd P you can actually not do it and keep the offence through the PKG stance(theres a mid sabaki in there somewhere and a catchthrow) or just starting a new attack. he can crouch for the next hit, but the you can 6p him for a stagger, he can fuzzy but get hit by a delayed throw. there are so many options to do just from this PKP delay or not situation.

it's important to keep in mind that a player will adapt to your strategies and you need to stay one step ahead of him at all times. it something you don't learn vs the ai as they react very badly to pressure but it is something important to keep in mind when you play human opponants. you know all your characters options and try to learn the ones your opponant uses so you can change your choices in the situations like the PK(P) one to break him down. i don't think it's hard to get to grips with.
for example when you press PK you know what situation which is going to arrise. at that moment you can go through your memory of how the opponant reacted and from there choose a correct action. if he does 2p everytime after PK then the followup is great, but what are you going to do when he ducks everytime? (like i did vs you in our lion vs sarah matches)
Lion, imho, is filled with things like this, where he might not feel to have advantage but actually still does if he reads the players reactions well, that's also why i've always said that he's a hard character to play, you really need to stay on top(not literally) of your opponant.

 

Reading it like this, it all seems so simple and doable but I know that in the heat of battle, I have big trouble adjusting my follow-ups depending on a hit situation or block situation.

"PK hits.....eeeekk!! Ummmm...What was it I was supposed to do now again? Hey, I think I have advantage, let's press that punch button again. What, now it gets blocked?? Hmmm..should I have done something else instead?"
I tend to have enough time to think about that latter question as it's not uncommon for me to be flying around by that time counting stars and such..

Only solution appears to be even more vs matches.

 

Always start simple.
PK (delay) P
PK, fP (follow up on stagger or counter)
PK, throw
Once you get confident you can go unorthodox, but you should always keep these three firmly in mind.

Same thing counts for 46P+KP and PP, only you get even more ways of going for elbow/throw: sway around to left or right with or without cancel and elbow or throw and sometimes simply finish the string or don't swing around and elbow or throw.

The nice thing about all the above is that they are usable whether you hit or get blocked as you retain 'virtual' advantage throughout (he can't outpace the standard follow-ups with anything).

And when you do get blocked in the end, there's always:
4PP (goes under highs from the first frame, use it, love it),
1/7/4P+K+G (move away),
evade P+K (delay the P+K to make the most of the evasion window),
214P (sabaki for various stuff),
1PP (vs short range moves),
8K (vs lows),
4P+K (vs highs ans short range moves) and
44K (doesn't clash with throws for an MC launch).

Between these options you can break through practically anything the opponent throws at you (lest you guess right). This is the main advantage of Lion (much akin to Blaze and Aoi btw), whether you're at advantage or disadvantage doesn't really matter as many of his moves with defensive properties also work as decent offence. This can make him very frustrating to play against.

Keeping up with his pace does require a lot of quick thinking, making him very exhausting to play, I'd suggest you simply get the input for the strings in the first two paragraphs into your system, you don't want to concentrate on inputting 46P+KP2PG,6P/63214P+G in the middle of battle, that should come out fluently.

And yeah, 4KP is a good move due to being double special high and leaving advantage on normal hit.

ps. Hhmmm, putting this down in writing makes it a lot clearer for myself as well...

 

Yeah, seeing it like this makes me instantly want to play and concentrate on trying it all out. The thing is that I'm using all of the moves you pointed out (though I should use 4PP a lot more) already. It's just that I'm not doing them in a certain order. That very fact is probably what is currently preventing me from making another step and raising my game to another level.

Give it some time. There once was a time when the whole evading was something that just couldn't find a place in my "mental system".
I just need a lot more "peace of mind" than what I'm currently used to when things get tight.

 

Twan, Spelling police here. opponant = opponent
Ik voeg voor de rest niks nuttigs toe maar het begon me te vaak op te vallen, sorry /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

rofl
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Warning, Spoiler: <input type="button" class="form-button" value="Show" onclick="if (this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display != '') { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = '';this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Hide'; } else { this.parentNode.parentNode.getElementsByTagName('div').getElementsByTagName('div')[0].style.display = 'none'; this.innerText = ''; this.value = 'Show'; }" /></div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div style="display: none;">Sorry, I just felt a dire need to punish all of you for living. (Found it through WarrenEllis dot com.)
</div></div></div>

 

like vort says; you don't always need to react when the situation arrises: if you simplify the situation for yourself at the beginning, you can mix up the followups according to how you think the opponant will react or has reacted in previous fights.
does he block, do a throw, does he try to interrupt, add the p.
when you are comfortable in the situation you can start adding new things, start having fun with stances, lows, you can even throw his sabaki in for even more damage, etc etc.
also like vort says, 46P+KP is also great for this reason, you can go to these evading moves but also the last P is delayable like PKP, the difference being that it's mid and gives a juggle on ch.

your game has gotten a lot better than those days when you didn't evade. there's a lot of stuff you do now than you didn't, so i'm positive you will be able to implement this into your game in the way you feel comfortable /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

@spoon: thank you for your contribution /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

Frankly, I felt this thread needed a bump, but I also got a little bit of pre-news.

Location and date for the NL WCG qualifiers will be revealed tommorrow. This also signals the start date for registering for the tournament.

Found at least two guys on the WCG site who said they were entering and couldn't identify either as one of us. So we're probably not the only competition. I'm absolutely psyched to see what kind of turnout this will pull.

 

Who knows, we might actually recruit more dudes into our little VF circle...

 

http://www.wcg2008.nl/index.php
Virtua Fighter 5 (Xbox360)
Zaterdag 21 juni. WCG Dome, Free Gaming Rotterdam
Leeftijdsrestrictie: Iedereen geboren VOOR 6 november 2002 kan meedoen


Well, well, no online qualifiers?
Time to check my agenda!

heheh, 18+ age restriction on Halo 3 due to Germany. Halo without screaming kids? Can it be true?

 

Voor Vf5 is dat: Iedereen geboren VOOR 6 november 1992 kan meedoen
Niet dat dat iets verandered of zo...

Enfin ik sta ingeschreven:
"Geachte deelnemer,
Via deze mail bevestigen wij dat je bent ingeschreven voor de Nationale Voorronde van de WCG 2008. Je bent bij deze zeker van een plaats in de voorronde.
Let op!!! Hou de website goed in de gaten voor eventuele mededelingen over tijdstip van aanmelden op de dag van jouw voorronde en eventuele verdere bijzonderheden. Een week voorafgaand aan de voorronde ontvangt je tevens een mail waar al deze bijzonderheden nog eens in staan.

Met vriendelijke groet

WCG Nederland"