VF4 EVO ver.B!!

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

in reply to scolaire: VF2 at at least 2 revisions, VF3 did also.. so it's fair enough for me to see 5. More revisions = a better game, not a worse game.

Kbcat:

Akira - the single fix I'd have is to either slow down DJK so you need a good float to land it (it's only 14 frames right?) or else make it not hit low to the ground, so that long range floats wouldn't suffice for DJK (like after shrm - p - shrm) ... basically fix DJK as stupid easy high damage after shrm, df+P+K, or fff+P. Otherwise I'd leave him alone, tho maybe 2 or so more frames recovery on df+P+K would be nice.

Kage: You're drunk, float higher. Add more recovery on FC uppercut. Or else make it not float on minor counter. I understand kage doesn' t have a ton of float tools but this move is bullllllshit. Otherwise leave him alone. I suspect that if I talked about how irritating the jumonji hopkick tracking is, people would say "you scrub deal with it!@!@"

Wolf: He needs a single input float starter... b,f+P+K is hard to do on twitch reaction or after a f,f dash. You lose frames entering the motion, while f+K was so instaneous. I don't think he needs the old knee back, just change b,f+P+K to f+P+K or something.

Jeffry: perfect, leave him alone.

Lau: elbow-palm not a true combo without minor/major counter or stagger? Make lunging knife never track even a tiny bit.

Pai: Leave her alone.

Shun: no idea, don't play him. If he's as strong as version B, that's fine with me. Shun is so unpopular it compensates.

Lion: I like your float combo thoughts... make FC upper refloat enough in combos to allow for stuff like ff+K,K. He can do akira clone combos - upper, p, upper, ff+K,K. actually, he can be left alone. Nobody uses his max damage combos it seems except chibita, and even he rarely uses df+P,P -> dash -> df+P combos, which tend to be the best possible damage in version C. Anyway, lion out of the hands of chibita doesn't seem all that nasty, giving him 85 pts vs. 80 points for a good interrupt isn't inconceivable. 5 pts less damage on b,f+K+G also.

Jacky: P+K,P needs more recovery, so that a major counter is needed for the kickflip followup... or at least the combo won't work vs. like, crouching defenders. It's too easy and has no requirements.
I've always wanted more recovery on elbow backfist and P+K,P... not necessarily counterable but like -7. It's expecting a lot of the average player to recognize the second hit and crouch on reflex without pressing P every time. You should be able to hurt jacky easily even if you block it and guess correctly, rather than allowing jacky to crouch dash out of trouble.

Sarah: I hate that first kick after she enters flamingo for the same reason I hate jacky's elbow backfist, it's hard to retrain yourself to duck without pressing punch. But I'm convinced it's just a practice/knowledge thing, so I say leave sarah alone.

Aoi: not sure what to do with her. Her damage potential always seemed kind of low. Maybe make her knee really quick and moderate recovery, and it gives a hard to struggle stagger vs. crouchers (maybe even butt stumble?) .... so she can be a knee-or-throw mean guessing machine. Rather than f+P+K,P all the time.

Lei: leave him alone, maybe give him a good third throw direction, ff+P+G or something that guarantees a stomp.

Goh: too early to say. He seems fine. Speed up f,f+P maybe, so it can catch lazy strugglers out of the shrm-stagger effectively, and be useful for mid-combat poking.

Brad: make the uppercut after his elbow-upper combo not float much if it hits the opponent during an elbow stagger. He shouldn't get so much free damage (like 50 pts?) from an elbow stagger. Free elbow stagger damage should be like 20 pts, anything else should require an interrupt/correct guess.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

This has been an interesting discussion, and I wanted to add my opinion.

Regarding Akira's floats in Evo: First, I don't think Shoulder- P- Shoulder- DJK is possible, is it? I know it can be done after the Knee/Yoho, but even then it's stance dependent, and for mids it requires either a counter hit with the knee (somewhat diffucult input), or the Yoho (somewhat slow execution).

While I agree that some of his new combos do eye-popping damage, I think it's largely due to the fact that a counter hit Yoho does really big damage by itself, at about 52 points of damage. Counter hit Knee does 45. If they were going to tone something down, I'd adjust the damage of those moves on counter hit. Taking away those huge floats would make him so bland again. I got so bored of Shoulder- P- Shoulder-... Zzzz.

K+G, P: I think this move is there simply for players who want to enjoy Akira but can't/haven't yet learned how to do his better dmage moves. There's no situation where this is really your best option, aside maybe closed stance shoulders against Wolf/Jeffry, and even then you'll still get better damage and push with the DLC. I think it's only real premium use is in a few OTB situations, and then you've got the "down" damage modifier in effect. Since it works in every combo situation, I really think it's just there for people who can't deal with the tricky stuff (like 1st Angel), so they can at least look good while doing less than optimum damage.

I agree with DRE that people who put the extra time in to learn the big/hard combos should be given a little extra reward damage-wise. Foe example, most people don't watch stance; I think if you teach yourself to do that, you should be able to get that extra 5-10 pts. I think many cases, learning the best combos isn't so much of a matter of dexterity as it is of memorization, study and practice. A good example is Goh's counter hit f+K- d/u+K+G combo. If you can do this every time to every character, you've studied and practiced. You should get the reward.

kbcat: I think Lau has a lot more than combos, and there are a lot of non-combo-heavy Lau players that do pretty well. Lau's throw game is one of the best in the game, and his toe-to-toe attacks are just as good as Jacky's IMO. I'm curious about your statement.

Finally, I also don't think Akira should have a Spin Attack, it's not his style. The fact that he doesn't helps to balance out all that stuff people seem to think is so strong, along with his lack of really good low attacks (d/f+P+K can be guarded visually with some practice- even though I can't do it /versus/images/icons/wink.gif). If they did give him something to hit dodgers, I think he should have something like the P+K+G or b, f+P+K+G where he stuck his arms out to his sides directly, hitting dodgers, but whiffing against people right in front of him. That'd be Akira style.

Spotlite

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

Lau doesn't *seem* as damaging as Akira to me because he's almost always doing PPPK variations in his floats. I haven't really compared combo damage between the two

Just for the record (fuel to the flames) -
Akira standard shrm combo: 93 pts.
Akira 'tough' or vs. lighter opponents shrm combo: 97 pts.
Yoho: 96 - 109 for the same combo enders.

Lau:
Standard DF+P combo: 78-86 pts, depending on how perfectly low the PPPsweep hits, and whether or not lau starts with DF+P,df+P+K or DF+P,P.
Standard DF+P+K combo: 93 pts.

So yeah, akira wins in the float damage department. Lau's DF+P,P is better than shrm to start combos because of the safe recovery if blocked, akira's yoho is less risky than lau's spoddable df+P+K.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

I really must agree with you on one thing . The DLC. No one ever uses it anymore because of the low damage. They REALLY need to bring this back into the game. I found it really fun to do in VF3, and still fun to do now. I frequently use DLC even when SR or DJK is more damaging, just because I enjoy it. I really hope they increase the DLC damage in Evo Ver. B

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

You can't SPOD Lau after guarding d/f+P+K, or D/F+P, P+K. They're both elbow class recovery (14 frames), which means Akira can do b, f+P. The SPOD is K+ class execution, at 20 frames.

This doesn't detract from your point, Yoho still has better recovery.

Spotlite

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

This isn't directed at spotlite or anyone in particular. This just seemed like a good place to put the post.

But here is how I see Akira:
Akira has the best floats in the game (see Creed's earlier post for damage numbers)
Akira has one of the best hit-throws in the game
Akira has the best setup throws in the game (Break Guards included)
Akira has reversals.
Akira's DE, and SDE, are still the best mid level moves in the game.
Akira has the wonderfullly strong sgpm-DE combo now. That's one hell of a poking tool.
Akira's new elbow, has a chicken option for getting out of the in-fight if things aren't going so well.
Akira's float tools don't need and MC to float.
(The spin attack comment was added for DRE's benefit.)

Where as with Lau:
Lau's floats are second best. (but still very good)
Lau has no hit throws
Lau has one crappy setup throw
Lau has no reversals
Lau has a good poking game -- but pokes are just for setting someone up. If you're winning most matches just by poking someone to death, then your game strategires could probably be improved.
Most of Lau's float tools require an MC to get the float, and this is a major difference between him and Akira.
All of Lau's best throws are limited to f, or df -- which means with exception throw escapers you are quickly limited to b, or d -- both of which I consider poor alternatives.


Finally, this is in response to spotlite
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />

I agree with DRE that people who put the extra time in to learn the big/hard combos should be given a little extra reward damage-wise. Foe example, most people don't watch stance; I think if you teach yourself to do that, you should be able to get that extra 5-10 pts. I think many cases, learning the best combos isn't so much of a matter of dexterity as it is of memorization, study and practice. A good example is Goh's counter hit f+K- d/u+K+G combo.

[/ QUOTE ]
spotlite: neither of the examples that you give require dexterity, nor do they reward dexterity. I do believe estute players that can recognize open stance, or the fact that they're close enough when they hit the knee to land the u|d+K+G with Goh, should be rewarded with a more damaging combo. I don't disagree with you in that respect. What I trying to say is that I think it would be a mistake for Sega (or the designers of any fighting game) to purposely overpower a character because that characters techniques require high dexterity from the player. Why? Because you'll wind up with an unbalanced game in the end -- where one character is more powerful than others.


cheers,
kbcat -- I don't know how I wound up in a Lau versus Akira conversation when I don't play either of them (I play Akira about as much as I play Lau -- once in a blue moon). On one last note, I think reversals should do as much as a P+G throw (35 or 40pts. -- I think 35) in order for them to be worth the risk , just my opinion though.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

While I can't comment evo shun,
I would like to see shun's sabaki a bit more usefull. I also think giving shun a few more low punching options would be nice...also, give him a few more moves out of drunken stance...he should have a roundhouse inashi.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

I agree with beefing up reversal damage. really make it worth while. Aoi should definetly ( at least ) get a rev boost. That would sky-rocket her popularity.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

I had to do another two bits..

Lau has no hit throws

To be fair, it's not like hit throws are key to anyone's arsenal. I mean you can think of lau's b,f+P or FC,bf+P as working like a 'hit throw' in the sense that if either hits the opponent at all, 25+ points are guaranteed under any circumstances, and the followup damage is easy to do. Easier in fact, than most hit throws... which require tight timing and/or major counter. SPoD's great but I see a lot of akiras get by without it for game after game.

Akira's float tools don't need and MC to float.

Also to be fair, lau's df+P+K, bb+P etc, and uf+K don't need an interrupt. His hopkick is also a nice combo starter, sort of lau's version of the "anti-dodge spod" that an akira might use vs. edteg's.

Lau has a good poking game -- but pokes are just for setting someone up. If you're winning most matches just by poking someone to death, then your game strategires could probably be improved.

Lau's canned combo pokes are reaaally nice. f+P,P is 39-49 points, essentially as much as an 'average' throw, and it's always a combo if the elbow hits. Both are uncounterable on block, like akira's sgpm-DE. I guess the tradeoff is akira's is more damaging in return for the slower execution of single palm.

Sidekick - P is 37 pts and has the threat of the delayed palm. The sidekick, the P, and the palm are all very safe on block... -5, -3, -3 respectively.

DF+PPPP is 57 pts assuming no counter. df+PPP is 35 or 37. Both of these are theoretically throwable after the second hit but you will never see it because of the option of a 4th or 5th hit. The final hit is delayable and tracking so lau is in pretty good shape even if these pokes aren't successful.

df,df+P barely qualifies as a poke, I think, but from long range it works as such and if successful is 57 without counter, something like 77 with.

Finally, some advantages you left out for lau:

-2 low attacks that knock down without counter, half circular and fully circular.
-Several strong circular attacks, including the bb+P etc combo, a very nice anti-dodge.
-His throwing game IS stronger despite your point about them all being escapeable with df or f. Akira and Lau are similar in the throwing game, all their big guns are centered around f and df... but I find lau's b to be superior to akira's db throw, and lau's stumble throw .. well, it's probably a hair weaker than akira's. Lau's P+G is a hair stronger.
=============

after all that is said, I still like akira more than lau for the position of number 1. Akira's got more damage potential overall even though he doesn't have the pokes and fully circular attacks.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

All good points. I agree with all of that -- even Lau's throwing game being slightly stronger than Akira's (but, I think Lau and Akira both have poor games -- you really need three high damage directions to have a really exceptional game).

Hit throws -- I know they're not a make it, or break it, kind of thing for someone's strategies. They are a nice addition and do power up the character -- I was just mentioning all of the things that I think add power to Akira. In the end,there is no doubt that Akira and Lau are among the top characters in EVO at the moment. It will be interesting to see if they remain so after rev.B


cheers,
kbcat

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

One change I'd like to see in Evo Ver.B is Aoi's reversals. I'd like to see the damage increased slightly so there's more of a reward for guessing correctly. It shouldn't be overkill (since she can now reverse damn near every move), just enough to give Aoi players a little more incentive to gamble with them. I've always felt they should at least be AS powerful, or more powerful than Akira's. I'd also give her more options from YY stance. That new YY stance punch looks extremely useful, and I'd like her to get at least 2 new attacks to add some variety to her game.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

A few changes for EVO ver. B Aoi that I'd like to see:

-An improvement to her sabaki game. Right now she has + and +, which are great because one cancels out most high/mid pokes, and the other gives stomach KD. She should either gain a move that works on knees, or knees should be added to the list of moves that the chin slap, +, works on. I love the sabaki part of her game, as it covers Aoi from being thrown or poked to death if her punch, elbows, or knee are blocked. She could also benefit from a low punch sabaki, one that stuns the opponent (sort of like Wolf's low punch reversal, but not as powerful). It could have the same effect as her rising attack inashi, which can be followed with +, or +, +.

-A floater that floats on a normal hit. This one is a guess, since I don't know that much Aoi's new ++. Aoi's old ++ floated on a normal hit and had -1 frame recovery if blocked. Not too bad, in my opinion. The newer version has a slower recovery (but still uncounterable) but it has a added to it, and I don't know if it still floats.

-I agree that her reversals should be beefed up a little. Right now they're at 25 points of damage (a few are at 30). They should all be at least 30 pts., or a max of about 35.

I think |+ from her Yin Yang stance is good enough, because it KD's on a major counter.

I don't have anything to add to Akira's list, as it has been covered already. I like the changes made to Akira in EVO. But I would love to see the Stun Palm 'o Doom made stronger by bringing the damage back to 80 pts. It's bad enough that the opponent can tech roll after being hit by it without decreasing the damage.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

they probably will need to be beefed up by like 20 pts :/ ... because ground throws are now escapeable. No more free ground throw after half the reversals makes them sort of a waste of time, tho you get df+P as a consolation prize. And maybe u+P works fine, never tried it in those situations.

 

Re: What do we think should be in EVOb?

The main gripe I have with Akira now is that he is much easier to use. Whereas in the past you needed the likes of DLC and SPOD to dish out damage, this is arguably no longer the case.

Example 1 (open stance Yoho):
DJK 75~92
P - DLC 71~88
P - AS3 65~82

Example 2 (MC df+P+K/SDE)
DJK 67~74
AS3 55~57
DLC 60~65

Finger dexterity just doesn't come into it anymore when you have no-brainer combo enders like f,f+KK. Also factor in uncounterable moves like f,f,f+P and df+P+K, which MC for that no-brainer f,f+KK. Think about it, even a newbie can input 2 moves that can take almost half your bar, so when someone like Mukky comes along, pays attention to stance and than unleashes yoho - P - D,f+P+K - DJK for over half bar, without even a wall, well...that's just silly.

I can understand AM2 trying to make him easier to play, but there should still be an element that 'seperates the men from the boys'. I'd keep the no-brainer moves in there but tweak their damage and execution ratings to make them less 'powerhouse' moves. Newbies could stick to them. The consensus than would be on true AKira heads to dish out AS3/DLC/SPOD/modified DbPm to turn him into a damaging character. Akira is quite simply laughably overpowered at the mo /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

My Akira evoB 'balance tweaks' would be:
D,f+P+K:
Take away the refloat. Why should AKira have a refloat move that is damaging in it's own right, and allows for f,f+KK/K+GP/DbPm ender!
f,f+KK:
Executes in 15frames! Thats like having a near elbow-speed counter that does 50pts damage, insane! It combos on EVERY character, you don't have to worry about weight at all!! Slow it down or something, perhaps 17fr exec? Force Akira's to use DLC and AS3 (or #shudders# D,f+PP) after a SDE/df+P+K MC or floats.
df,df+P:
Does 52pts on a MC, tweak the damage. Why does it take 35pts normally anyway? Akira's knee does 30pt, and that's a difficult move to do on instinct unless you've put the practise time in.
D,b,f+P:
Err hello 45pts on normal hit! 14fr execution! They tone down Jeffs b+P and take away Kage's FC,df+P but Akira gets to keep this! The move has insane range, even if it clips you it does minimum 40pts, and on MC say goodbye to 60+pts of your bar. Akira's can just stay out of range and dish this out when someone whiffs their attack. Well you can't get rid of the move, Akira players would riot, but at least tone down the damage or speed /versus/images/icons/wink.gif

Well that's MY Akira rant over, don't even get me started on why Brad is the best character in the game, or why Kage is now near bottom tier...