VF4: sabaki moves

I haven't played Akira enough yet, but if you used b+P+K+G alone (i.e. without the followup f+P) is anything guaranteed afterwards? If not, then classing it as inashi wouldn't be accurate because, well, it'd be useless to perform the move on it's own.

I think SPoD might be guaranteed if you deflect a low punch with b+P+K+G (the opponent gets deflected and lands on his butt for a split second... different animation from deflecting high P or high K)... we tested this out a long time ago on VF4test, but that was before the move became b+P+K+G (was formerly b,f,f+P+K+G), so I'm not really sure whether it works under battle conditions, or in ver.B

 

Okay, here's what I understand:


To understand Sabaki, one of the parts of VF4's system that still baffles me, I've decided to write first about the 9 kinds of struggle-able stagger in VF4; or "Yoroke" in japanese. Basically, these are the classic staggers of VF, usually brought on by a middle attack to a crouching opponent. In VF4, you'll see the shaking stick, they are (as listed in the VF4 Arcadia mook):

1. Standing Guard: any move that induces a stagger when it connects with an opponent who is standing and guarding. The best example is guarding a fully loaded charge attack, which will cause a stagger. Other examples include Akira's break guards (f+P+G and d+P+G). I think Kage's P+K (not from JS double chop) also falls here.

2. Hit in Crouching Situation: the classic stagger. usually elbows and middle kicks to crouchers.

3. Normal Hit: some moves now stagger upon normal hit. Lei Fei's f,f+K is an example. Other examples I'm not sure.

4. Counter Hit: a major counter hit (hit interupts oppt's attack) will cause stagger. Jacky's Dash Hammer (f,f+K).

5. Staggering Throws: throws that put the opponent off balance and in a situation where the player can follow up with an attack or another throw. Examples include Lau. Pai and Akira's b,d+P+G, Wolf's Push and Double Claw, and Akira's f,b+P+G.

6. Reversals/Inashi: These are special reversals that may or may not do damage. They include Aoi's Inashi and Pai's new command Inashi.

7. Wall: driving the oppt. into the wall with certain attacks will create a struggle-able stagger.

8. Vanessa's "Hold": Vanessa holds the oppt's right or left arm, and can combo into kicks/throw. Before she enters a command, you can struggle out, also struggle between commands.

9. Vanessa's "Front Sleeper": Vanessa holds the opponent in a standing choke from the front. Shake the stick to escape.

As shown here, VF4 has a lot more kinds of stagger than previous versions. But on top of this, there's other things like Kuzure Down, the new "chin up" stagger (un-struggleable) and Sabaki.

Sabaki is a move that allows you to avoid or deflect the opponent's move, while attacking or creating an opening to attack yourself. But there is more than one type. The mook describes them as:

"Take the Attack's Effect Sabaki" and " Take Special Property Sabaki"

"Take the Attack's Effect Sabaki" include Pai's f,b+P as Yamcha mentioned. I guess these Sabaki are atttacks that have a window that eats the oppt's attack. This probably also includes Vanessa's hold or tap P then P or K attacks.

"Special Property Sabaki" includes Sarah's "Fake" (during Flamingo P+K against low punches), Wolf's "Low Punch Cut" ans Akira's "TsuTenHou". These sabaki are a kind of special reversal that induces an un-struggle-able stagger.

By this rule, Aoi's inashi is not sabaki, since you can struggle out of it.

In my experience as an American VF player, one of the things that has always been lacking in my understanding of the game is a complete, accurate understanding of the system. I think we should all work to try and figure out and DOCUMENT VF4's system completely, and make one cohesive system FAQ. I'd be happy to contribute whatever I can. I hope this helps.

Spotlite

 

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

4. Counter Hit: a major counter hit (hit interupts oppt's attack) will cause stagger. Jacky's Dash Hammer (f,f+K).

<hr></blockquote>

Now when you write f,f+K for Jacky, you mean his punt kick right? If you MC an opponent with Jacky's punt kick, the opponent would normally be knocked down. Jacky's punt kick staggers on MC now?

cheers,


<font color=white>Llanfair</font color=white>
<font color=orange>Booyah daddy mac! I'm stylin!</font color=orange>

 

Excellent post Brian; one of the things that has always interested me was VF's system. I'm with you in trying to figure it out completely...but I think we'll need some nihongo speaking people to do so. /versus/images/icons/tongue.gif

 

iirc, the japanese pages say it still knocks down on MC.

--
"A chem bla deshembla blurr fuh bli fouzh"

 

Re: Jacky's punt kick

I got nailed with Dash Hammer (punt kick), Knee Strike (f,b+P+G) several times in Japan.

Unless it's been changed in version B, yes it staggers on counter (on your ass like Myke said). It's the move they use to illustrate the "counter hit stagger" section in the mook. But since Myke saw it, it can't have been changed in Ver. B right?

I think we can get a good start going on a system FAQ ourselves, then fill in the blanks with the help of Japanese people.

Did you guys know that Escape TE, Guard TE and Rev TE are all possible again? In addition to the afforementioned Double command TE, which does not require returning to neutral. Last week my Tokyo friend said he's actually trying 3 and 4 command throw escapes by just sliding the joystick around from f,d/f,d, d/b and hitting P+G to decent effect.

Also DoRiMaGa talks about how to rise in a crouch from regular getting up, with or without a roll (not ukemi). Although I don't think it's Muteki-Oki.

Spotlite

 

Bryan,

Would you say that there is a fundamental distinction between the second type of sabaki you mentioned ("reversal" type; e.g. Akira's b+PKG - as opposed to the "strike" type sabaki; e.g Kage's JM, P+K), and an inashi, besides inducing a non-struggleable stagger?

Wouldn't it be feasible to put them under a subcategory of inashi, or "special property inashi", after which there's a guaranteed followup, because of the non-avoidable stagger? I'm aware that sabaki are very distinct in the way that they "eat through" the opponent's moves, carrying with them a peculiar sound effect and so on; GLC suggested that sabaki results in an -attack-, even when missed, and that grouping the "reversal" type together with it would be less appropriate than attributing them to a different class of inashi.

 

ok lets go to VF4 now. aoi's inashi's have 3 different groups i know of.
1 = you can struggle from. (ie high kick inashi)
2 = no struggle for opponent but no garaunted follow up for aoi (in VF3/4 1 of the punch inashi's)
3 = no struggle plus garaunted aoi follow up (aoi's other punch inashi infamous in VF3)
she has ALL of these inashi types in one move (yin - yang stance b+P+K+G, hold P+K+G indefinately if you want)
my point here is that you can't struggle out of all of her inashi's, does that make yin - yang a sabaki? ( i agree with you that its not, i think!)
point 8 is debatable at the moment. the cpu on hard has never been able to struggle out of the hold before i do a move, they rely on their ability to guess the right form of defence.
once someone like adio is about i'll test it out (or 1 of you can
if you could always struggle out, they'd be no point having the move, with its follow ups.

 

Re: Jacky's punt kick

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Last week my Tokyo friend said he's actually trying 3 and 4 command throw escapes by just sliding the joystick around from f,d/f,d, d/b and hitting P+G to decent effect.

<hr></blockquote>

Actually, I was reading this on one of the BBS boards at VF4 Overweight. There were some talking about being able to spin the joystick 360 with P+G and getting multiple throw escapes. I'm not sure how successful or reliable this would be but it was an interesting discovery nonetheless.

cheers,

<font color=white>Llanfair</font color=white>
<font color=orange>Booyah daddy mac! I'm stylin!</font color=orange>

 

SUPER THROW ESCAPES..... sigh....

Hmmm, I hope you can't 360 throw escapes.... I feel it would just kill some aspects of the game...

2 or 3 is fine in my book. Anything more is practically taking things away.... but oh well... I'll admit, it sounds like a fun thing to try to test out. And I guess there's much more to VF4 than throwing

But I am seriously hoping the "absurd" doesn't come about.

-Chanchai

PS (don't know if I posted this here already), Dickson mentioned to me that there is mention on the Taiwan and HK forums about Lei Fei having a death combo.

 

Re: SUPER THROW ESCAPES..... sigh....

PS (don't know if I posted this here already), Dickson mentioned to me that there is mention on the Taiwan and HK forums about Lei Fei having a death combo.

No shit, what is that? I'd LOVE to know...

 

Re: SUPER THROW ESCAPES..... sigh....

b,f+P+K -> if this hit -> b+P,P (oppenet is down) -> (if the oppenet did side roll recovery) -> Defeat-Miss System P,P+K
-> f,f+K (hold K) -> Independent system K -> K+G

It takes about 90% of the life bar.

 

Re: SUPER THROW ESCAPES..... sigh....

Sorry, it's not Defeat-Miss System P,P+K!
It's Defeat-Miss System P+K.

 

Re: SUPER THROW ESCAPES..... sigh....

Thank you! =) I'll go check this out next time I play...

 

Manoel,

I think that the distinction is that Aoi's inashi will unbalance the oppt breifly, but they basically remain standing, and the green stick appears. In sabaki, they sort of go down a little (like VF2 Akira's palm against a croucher, but not as severe). Secondly, Aoi's inashi usually places her to the side or back of the oppt, sometimes moving them to the rear. Most Sabaki push the oppt forward, and you remain face-to-face. The exception to this is Wolf's low punch cut, which actually has 2 types. One leaves you back turned I think. If an inashi takes teh force of an oppt's attack and directs it away from the defender, using the forward motion of the attack to unbalance the attacker, then sabaki of the second type would seem to force the oppt back onto themselves as they attack (again Wolf's LPC looking like more of an inashi, but still unstruggle-able). In addition, most "Special Case" sabaki require a special command to correspond to the oppt's attack, Aoi's inashi merely requires entering into the Yin-Yang stance (where she can stay). In this respect, Pai's new inashi resemble sabaki more, but again are struggle-able AFAIK. Finally, I think that in the hands of a skilled player, Sabaki can have a bigger payoff than what I was familiar with Aoi being able to do in VF3 after inashi.

Madin

Well, whether or not you can avoid certain attacks by struggling after Aoi's inashi or not, they are all struggle-able, as the stick appears after all of them. So even though let's say her double jumping kick may be guaranteed after certain inashi, to me that doesn't mean that inashi is unstruggle-able. I guess you could say that it's like Lau's b,d+P+G: while you can't struggle from b,f+P AFAIK, you can struggle from b,b+P.

ANd regarding Vanessa's hold, I wouldn't say that you can't struggle out before the first hit because the CPU hasn't done it. I've sen people do it in versus play. Some Vanessa players will slightly delay the attack to throw off TE timing. Again, I'm gonna reference another move: Akira's f,b+P+G in VF3. An expert player can struggle out of almost any follow-up with proper timing, but doing that consistantly is another thing altogether.

Spotlite

 

ok spotlite i get your point on aoi, good explanation.
on vanessa are you saying that if someone is a good player they can struggle out completely before vanessa can ATTEMPT to do anything?
in my experience with vanessa against human opponents, if i delay at all, they get out of the hold. are you refering to the stuggling i read of in another post where people were told that quickly rotating from forward to down and pressing guard was effective in avoiding vanessas 2 kicks that she can do after the hold?