VF5 AI (detailed breakdown)

As I've said before, there seem to be both good points and bad ones when it comes to learning from the computer. On the one hand, you can learn which moves are "safe", and which are punishable (and by what). You can test combos under real combat situations, and you can learn the timing for each characters' specific attacks and move strings. In a nutshell, you gain valuable experience.

However, the tradeoff is that this tends to make you fight in a specific pattern. I personally know that I developed the habit of blocking way too much because the computer tends to complete its move strings no matter what the cost. Also, you get used to using throws as your damage fallback. And lastly, as LemmyIsTheGame has stated, the computer will discourage you from trying moves like cancels, fakes, stance changes, etc., so when you get to a human player, you subconsciously don't think to use them.

 

Yes, that seems to be true. I do think the single player game is still a very good way to learn the game but as you say, some moves seem less effective against the CPU than they would be against humans. Today, as Jacky, I had about 5 or 6 matches and the only move I forgot about and didn't think about attempting was his /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gifcharge/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif+/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif - this is an effective move that I forgot about as the CPU will escape the final hit 95% of the time.

It's just a case of remembering that although you shouldn't attempt a certain move against the CPU, still try to keep the move in your mind for versus play. Aside from this, the CPU AI is still a far better way of learning the game than the Dojo mode.

 

Playing the AI gives you a lot of bad habits against a human player. From my experience anyways.

P.S. I hate quest mode.

 

sorry, if this has been brought up before,
or discussed to death earlier..

i remember in vf4 there was a training mode
where you 'train' a character to fight, and
it evolves into a better fighter, makes mistakes,
etc....of course, if you weren't that good to
begin with, maybe that character wouldn't learn
either (oldtimers might remember that vf2 had
an 'expert' mode that learned in a basic way,
(arcade / pc / saturn versions))...

could it be possible that some of the ai's for
the characters, were based on actual human players,
and then tweaked to be better or worse....how hard would
it be to add 'adaptive' ai to each of the computer
opponents, so that when you fight them, they not
only learn from you, but they also learn from their
own mistakes...

issues
1) every character becomes super smart, and thus you
can never beat any of them, of course it would take
a long time to make this happen (and of course they
could easily cheat, and make each character unbeatable,
but what fun is that?)

2) every character sucks, and is never a challenge,
just the opposite, because if a weak player trains,
they never get to do the advanced moves/strategies..

another thought..

i remember that in vfkids, (yes, i played that too)..
you could input frame data/moves/etc...create your
own combos...that kind of freedom was amazing..

ok, so now you have another option, where you can
'enhance' characters with custom combo's, new frame
data, add new strategies, and combine this with
advanced training via the dojo, and there you go,
custom computer opponents..

downsides:
----------
obviously it is not trivial to program these,
and though the hard work is already done via vf2,
taking these, and adding them onto the vf5 framework
is a non trivial task, that advanced ideas won't make
it until vf6 (if that)...

the other thing is that although these features were
there in the past, the reason they were cut were:
1) they're way too complicated for the average user,
let alone the new player....and while a few advanced
players would use it, why bother putting in something
that only hardcore people would enjoy?
2) ok, how do you transfer these new custom characters,
models, ai to other machines, or have them play online..
maybe this isn't so bad, if everyone has hard disks,
memory cards, and high speed access..


ok SEGA, now that have all these rough consulting
ideas, where's my reward? just kidding.....vf5 will
never be hacked (i guess), but if there were add ons
to it..it would be cool...i don't think a hacking
scene developed for vf4, or vf2 , even though all
these things (ai development, learning) were exposed..


(by the way, can you tell i'm a software developer?)
too bad, i didn't work in programming video games,

thoughts, anyone?

later
-1

 

The VF4 system solved a lot of the problems you seemed to be mentioning. That is, it supported things like saving your trained AIs to a memory card, and then you could take it to a friend's house, and have them play it, or even have your two AIs fight each other.

That said, the reason it was cut wasn't that it was too "hardcore"... it's that it was a stupid idea in the first place, and literally noone used it. In an arcade setting, it can work... you train your AI on a specific arcade machine, and then other people can play it when you aren't there (I assume it was like that conquest mode in SC(?), which is pretty popular). But for a home system, why bother making your friend come over and play your AI, when he can just play you.

To my knowledge, in VF4:Evo (and possibly ever since?), AM2 actually collected a lot of data from japanese tournament matches, and did specifically try to put AI characters in quest mode that played very similar to top players in japan.

 

ok, but now take that idea, (and although it will never happen),
add an option on the online vs screen, to make it train against player ai's, or a mixed mode, where if you don't find a match against someone, you can either play 1) random ai 2) user selectable ai.....in this case the online players can train against the ai, so it gets smarter from playing...and then you
can download to play against......

having an online option now, really could make some interesting
developments...especially if you get realtime feedback from players....[and of course, the ai's could fight against each other when there are no players playing against them also].

once again the limiting point > how good do you want them
to get?

later
-1

 

Online actually makes it worse in my eyes. Why would anyone ever bother playing against your AI, when they can just play someone who's actually online other than you?

And what's with AIs playing each other then... it's like a screensaver or what? Just download Folding@home or something if you want your computer busy when you're not there.

The idea of training an AI is interesting, especially from a software development perspective (I work in that field myself), but from a practical perspective, there's really no market whatsoever. Maybe if back in VF4 days, you could load the AIs online before there was any net code to let distant people player each other... but now?

 

what i meant, if you check my thoughts, were
that sometimes NO ONE IS PLAYING, and you can't connect at
all with anyone, then what i meant was that you could
play against the computer while you were waiting..and
they could make it so you could play against other
characters....think about it, (YES I KNOW YOU ARE PLAYING
AGAINST REAL PLAYERS), but if you didn't know it was the
computer, would you care?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And what's with AIs playing each other then... it's like a screensaver or what? Just download Folding@home or something if you want your computer busy when you're not there.

The idea of training an AI is interesting, especially from a software development perspective (I work in that field myself), but from a practical perspective, there's really no market whatsoever. Maybe if back in VF4 days, you could load the AIs online before there was any net code to let distant people player each other... but now? </div></div>

so what is SEGA supposed to do?
make the game easy for expert players? (which from reading
the boards, it is).... make the characters only as good
as the programmers? never put in any of the cool combos?

why did they bother putting the tournament replays with
all the advanced techniques, if their characters never
use them?

if they (SEGA) can't learn the techniques from the advanced
players, where are they supposed to get their ideas from?
i'm not saying they don't have some awesome programmers/players,
but the cross-section might not be that great..

don't you think our consoles/computers are powerful enough
to process new ai information? instead of wasting it on
more polygons (ie outfits/lighting/etc).... the real
breakthrough should come in player ai....think about it,
yeah, i keep saying they could make the computer win all
the time easily with perfects, but wouldn't you be
discouraged....now consider an ai that plays you well
enough so that you can't distinguish it from a person,
it even makes mistakes, fakes, etc...and you beat it..
don't you think you gain experience from that..

NOT EVERBODY has access to online play...or friends that
play...i don't even have a internet account (posting from
work).....heck i'm STILL playing vf2, and have to go back
and play vf3/vf4/vf4evo...to learn....maybe the experts have
maxed out this game, but for the average/casual player, there
is still A LONG way to go for most people before they ever
get to the point where worrying about the ai being hard enough
is a factor..

later
-1

 

Actually your idea is pretty good Negative1, and saying there is no market whatsoever is bs, really. Think about all those Europeans and Latin Americans that can't play against North Americans (majority of the 360 userbase) because of lag issues, or even North Americans who have busy connection for a moment but want to spare some before work or whatever? Or have your friend train an AI, you could basically "play vs" with him anytime you want! Having a trained AI that acted like a human player would be a welcome improvement, imo.
I'm going to play on the PS3, no online mode, but even if there was Online for us I still couldn't play it because I live in South America and I lag like hell when playing against foreign people. I really would appreciate something like this. Even though I have rl friends to play with they can't come here often, but it would be great to have them train some AIs so I could "kinda" play against them anytime I wanted =P

 

What are you talking about, -1? There is an extremely good AI already in the game, provided by AM2. As much as some people can complain (and yeah, the AI has a few issues, like never, ever, ever escaping ground throws, for instance), it's still generally considered the best AI ever created in a fighting game.

If you're stuck with noone else online, go practice in quest mode (btw, I've never yet seen a time when there weren't people online).

The fact that a few people might come up with an occasional reason to use a feature like that is an exception, not a counter-argument.

And last but not least... you can train an AI all you want, and if it's based on VF5s current AI system, it will still have issues like never escaping ground throws. That is, as good as they can get it, it's not going to magically be good enough to replace real competition anyway.

And why would SEGA need an AI to play the game? They watch all the major tournaments in japan, and rebalance the game to change combo options and whatnot based on that information. Then they program an AI to make use of that system, and hopefully play well. Not the other way around.

 

I agree with you I really like the option to train the AI to be a sparring partner. Back in the day when VF4 came out I trained an AI to be my equal or good adversary when I didn't want to train playing the Kumite mode. I even dared others to beat it to even challenge me and it was quite formidable too. I don't see anything wrong with this feature and hopes it does come back because it would be the best AI you ever face in time (it is a shadow of the player essentially) with enough training. I don't see anything wrong with this along with the great AI the game has already, it would add to the game not take away from it from my point of view.

 

I guess I should point out that I'm not trying to say that it's an innately bad feature, adding it would be adding additional value to the game in a global sense. The issue is that you have on thread full of people complaining they want Taka back, one thread full of people complaining that the menu system for online play sucks, and this thread complaining about wanting the VF4 AI training back (which they did remove because of lack of interest following the initial VF4).

The issue is where should AM2 spend the little time they have improving the game, and I just can't fathom this particular feature being worth the time compared to most of that other stuff.

 

I agree with you that it is dumb even though the 360 version is an improved version of the PS3 AI slightly and not by very much. My worst characters can beat them easily I don't get a decent challenge until I face the characters ranked higher than 10th dan and even then the difference from them and the characters 10th dan or lower isn't as high as I would expect even after facing them many times.

The basic game for the AI is defense and recovers from recovery stuns seemingly instantly, turns around after being hit by moves like /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif in the case of Pai and defends against any immediate attack throw, jab, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/uf.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif etc and do so consistently every time. If I do the charged kick after a /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif they always dodge the kick every time it is just too good to be true. I beat it mainly because of my ability to throw effectively and it always fall for it because of its defense first offense second nature. people tend to want to play offensive first and that becomes a major disadvantage to human players against the strong defense starting off until the person learns to beat it.

 

I have feeling you are right too and see the only people actually using it are the best and most experienced players like you an me. We may use it to see the how good we are compared to how we were before using the trained AI as the other reference. Most people very likely won't use it and it very likely won't be added in but we can only hope this changes hopefully

 

ok, what is your point? you're contradicting yourself.
there is NO NEED TO go back and redo the AI learning system,
as you point out, its ALREADY THERE.. the beginning of this
thread pointed out the deficiences in the computer ai of
this game..

i only brought up a THEORETICAL implementation , and use
for a system that ALREADY EXISTS (at least since VF2)..

nowhere did I state that 'SEGA' has to/or needs to bring
back the training AI...

who says AM2 has 'little time'? ITS THEIR JOB, don't you
think they're constantly working on all the updates for
the arcade, and also for the future VF6 specs? they GET
PAID TO DO THIS....don't be an apologist for them..
if you never ask for anything, or never put the ideas
out there, they will never consider them...

don't forget, once upon a time 'online play' was
impossible, and would never have been considered..


later
-1

 

My point is AM2 created an AI training system, then noone used it, and everyone told AM2 they hated it. In Evo, they removed that system, and created Quest mode, and were almost universally praised for this change.

You're basically 6 years too late on this one, and there's no evidence whatsoever that the system wouldn't go completely unused again, no matter how cool you think it is in writing.

Also note, the AI has been completely revamped at least twice since the orignal VF4. They can't just pop the old system back in and expect it to work.

The reason online play was considered impossible in the old days, is because it was impossible. Broadband internet was not widely enough adopted until the last few years, and it wouldn't have mattered how good their netcode was, it still would have lagged. That has nothing at all to do with AI training, there are no technical limitations because it's already been done. The issue is solely that everyone in the entire world (except apparently the three of you) completely hated the idea, and told AM2 to get rid of it a long time ago.

My point about "little time"... they've already released the game twice (PS3 and xbox), and the only real change is the addition of an online mode. It's a really good online mode, but they still have a crappy dojo, for example, and weren't able to redo some of the awesome Evo training modes. I'd want that back long before they start working on the AI again, plus we already know they're spending time creating 2 new characters... if they're gonna make a VF5:evo or w/e, it'd be nice if it actually came out in a reasonable amount of time.

 

I've really just played Online mostly on VF5 360. However for the few times Ive played quest I've found an immutable flaw in the AI on expert setting, If you are standing 4 feet away from a downed opponent, theyll always go for the low rising kick, so you can ALWAYS nail them with Vanessa's d/b K+G for a huge counterhit combo opportunity. It never learns from that mistake, even if its at low health. Other than that the AI is stellar, from the short time Ive spent with it.

 

Is there a code to unlock everything without playing the stupid Quest mode and the dumb cheating AI?

 

If not then can you still earn everything by playing Quest mode on the easiest difficulty? I just want the items and money so I can customize lots of characters for online play.

 

I think the AI is fine. I run on Expert only and burn through most opponents. There are of course matches that can give me a challenge, mostly from the last tier of ranks. But other then that I don't see "cheating". After Evo and the extensive training it provided for throw escapes, countering, and just playing with the basics rather then the fancy, the AI just doesn't pose a problem. Before 360 I had little real player experience and this hurt me. The AI is nothing compared to real opponents. If anything I think the AI should be better and more realistic.