VF5 Tears List Thread

Kage has sick ringout skills.

 

Yeh, 46P+G with Akira when their back is to the fence and they are out of the ring. If Akira himself is a couple of steps away from the fence and does 42P+G stumbling trip then double palm then they go out the ring aswell. I don't know of any other character that can ring out on half fence using throws with either character being up against a wall.

Also the addition of those safe on block moves you said which will ring out on CH (some on NH).

I whole heartedly believe that Akira is a higher tier than what people think.

 

Yeah Lei is pretty strong at a distance, but I dunno, I feel like all the characters in A and B tier can pretty effectively force their game on Lei Fei.

His whiffpunishing is very strong, but imo he doesn't really have any really strong other options. Yes 66k+g is tough if your character lacks a nice keepout tool, but for example Lau can effectively stop it with a well-placed 3k.

Lei's spearpunch doesn't really scare me that much offline, if you pay attention you can evade this at long range on reaction and at midrange the Lei-player has to put himself at risk to use this move, since it's not that fast compared to usual midrange attacks like sidekicks and the payoff isn't that big.

I think B-tier is a good place for him. It's not that he's weak, but I think the characters placed above him can force their game on him more than the other way around.

 

Risk/Reward is the real tier and what it should be based off most imo, because everyone can end a round in 3-4 correct choices. Just read right and figure out your opponent before they do to you. Just get that feel and make sure your correct choices are the strongest you can get, and hopefully your incorrect choices are ones that can't be punished unless avoided or reversed, and if guarantees are there... minimize. Alot of characters are at more risk for their reward than others. Linear moves, frame punishable moves, single limbed moves, lack of string/lack of variable string, lack of move property's variety, hitboxes, speed, etc.

Punishment doesn't have as much bearing on what makes a character good in 5, because of how safe moves are to the frame. <- cause that's what Jide based it on right? Or is it punishment based on how unsafe you can make a character become in the matchup, due to stuff like: Linear moves, frame punishable moves, single limbed moves, lack of string/lack of variable string, lack of move property's variety, hitboxes, speed, etc. Then Jide's list could almost go in reverse.

Some characters can get great rewards or risk free options from moves that can't be punished at all, even if evaded. Alot of 3K's from range do stuff like this, and the added strings cover them even more, some don't.

Sarah's punishment is freakin excellent, it's amazing, but it is that way only with guarantee strikes at -10, -15 and crouched -16. The -10 couple others can get, the -16 does only a lil bit more than alot of -15 punishers, even her own. The -16 might be very sketchy depending on what actually happened.

Eileen gets the amazing 10f punisher to adv too, Pai gets 10f punish but it's not the same for Pai because the PK might not always be as beneficial, cause it don't even give adv does it?

 

Punishment is simply how good a character is at punishing punishable moves. As simple as that.


Sarah not only has standard -10 punishment + great -15 and -16 punisher, she also has the best 13fr punishment in the game with + which does something like 46 damage + knockdown. If you can do this consistently on stuff like Akira's knee or Jeffry's then the risk/reward for these moves will drastically change.

Her is also very good punisher for low kicks. She's not alone in having this kind of punisher, but together with all her other stuff I definitely rate Sarah as having the best punishment in the game.

Pai gets frame advantage from her if she goes into bokutai. That girls have 10fr jabs doesn't really give them that much advantage in punishment situations though as -10 moves are very rare in VF5.

 

@ Marly

Blaze's main throw game is really good. Infact I dare say it's even better than Jeffry's.

Kage's throw game is probably the best. But Wolf's just has a higher consistent damage. TFT pretty much rules the roost

Erdaug while Vane's punishment and throws become stronger in OS rather than taking maximum potential I just pretty much averaged them up because she has to rely on being in another stance.

Slide it's just punishment. I do know that having a really strong punishment game doesn't make you top tier but it does help!

 

I agree with you, but I looked at a couple things differently that's why I didn't mention them.

The -13, is amazing, but it's already past 12, while throws can be escaped, you can't escape every single one. So it'd be like, 0 damage or minimum 45? To a maximum of 100 pts. or something right? With throws.

And her 6PK on rare occasion, typically vs heavies it can miss the K at range. This is very rare, so it doesn't really matter.

But other than that, I completely agree.

 

Sarah doesn't do enough throw damage or have enough damaging directions to warrant giving up 46 damage that is GUARANTEED for a guessing game. Let's say opponent escapes the two best throw directions every time, then you'll be doing less damage then + anyway. If you throw every time at +13 and calculate the average damage you'll get out of it I'm pretty sure that you'll end up with far less then 46.

Only time Sarah should be doing throws as punishment is rare occassions at +10 to +12, other then that you're just throwing away damage. Most of the time you should do to punish at +10 to +12 too.

This, of course, you can throw out the window if you face someone you know can't break throws, also in the heat of battle it is sometimes just easier to do that throw instead of the proper punishment which happens to us all, but not something one should strive for.

 

Here comes the elongated discussion about Sarah

 

Why? He's just reiterating what most of us should already know, or to anyone that didn't. Which is why discussions of any kind about the game around here can be good, even if it's solely about Sarah.

 

Kidding mostly, I just know how Sarah players like to chat about the ol gal

 

Characters which have sabaki's/reversals to defeat 2P.

I know of Goh, Vane (DS stance), Wolf, Akira and Aoi.

Characters which have good, or lots of double handed/double footed (un-sabakiable) moves.

S: Akira

Akira has appeared top or very highly in the majority of these lits. I'm willing to suggest he's actually top tier and not just high B.

 

Lau throw game worst then lion?? that's crazy talk. IMO the throw tier list is totally off besides Wolf and Kage being top

IMO

S Wolf, Kage, Goh, Jeffry, Blaze, Aoi,
A Vanessa,Akira(for RO ability and the 2 directional Throw mix up and even greater wall dmg game),Lau and Pai (tie, I say only because of pai Low throw options.
B Lion, Sarah, Lei Fei, Jacky, Eileen, Shun (0 DP)
C Brad

While Akria 1 throw might have a very limited use he still has a 2 throw which creates some nasty mixups and can get crazy near a wall. And Lau have many directions that are all useful and powerful his 42P+G is very very useful

 

There was a tier list posted sometime ago on VFDC. I think it was from Arcadia and someone had translated it. Akai?

Jeff, Sarah and Aoi should be the worst characters according to that list if I remember. Aoi makes sense. Anyone who doesn't play her doesn't realize her P is 12f (as slow as Jeff and Wolf) and has small range. Aoi can't win on speed like in FT days where she had the fastest p in the game. She was better at rushing in FT due to fastest p and elbow elbow combo which was nerfed in VF5. I guess Aoi's throw range is the smallest in the game. You have to be right next to the opponent to throw and anything else will whiff. If you see a whiffed throw (especially from Wolf/Jeff), often you can't throw back or pk due to her tiny range. On a whiffed throw, most mid-weights like Jacky/Brad/Lau would have no problem responding with throw or pk.

 

All of lions directions are useful too.

Lau
does 45 pts
60pts
55
does 25.
10pts you can struggle out of everything but still useful.

Lion
60
60+
40
40
Plus his two awesome catch throws
40-70pts (If you guess wrong after the or option he gets a side crumple combo)
+

I don't think Lau's is better. Admittedly I just stole the list from the previous thread not sure if there was a "final" list. Akira needs walls for his throw game to be truly scary. I'm looking for consistency. Akira's : :g: is too much of a risk as it's guaranteed damage if it's escaped. For most of the cast! Which is why I always try to Shiha instead. Just me though!

Ordering it's difficult but pretty much the classes are right I think. Anyway nice to see some good posts and suggestions.

 

Hi Jide, see this thread about Lau's 42pg. That throw works wonders offline.

http://virtuafighter.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/268617#Post268617

Agreed that Lions throw game is stronger than Lau (not by much). Lion's catch throws are a big advantage. Lau should have one too... You did forget Lau's Koeki stance 6p, pg throw which will do 58. Are you counting in hit throws too?

 

I play both characters and my personal preference is def Lau throws over Lion better mind games better use for me. Agreed that Lion throws do more Dmg and I admit it's prob close but I truly think that its depends on player styles for those two. Also, at least in the States the 2 direction throw rarly gets escaped when theirs better throw options for that character (minus perhaps Kage) so that alone for me grants Lau extra points
Also remember that pounce is guaranteed after Lau P+G and 6P+G unlike for Lion so the Dmg is actually more then what you posted.

I thought walls was a factor in rating the throws? I mean so is Ring Out right? that would also be a part of consistency. You are right about Akria 46throw though quite risky when escaped