VFDC Ranking Project?

I would think that experince in the game could at least, theoretically be, a non-issue. Someone could purely gather stats on all the characters and make match ups. Kinda like the guy in Best of the best - he couldn't fight, but he sure as hell had enough information to do rankings.

 

Myke, thanks for the clarification about the YY.

As for the ranking project, it seems like tracking statistics on competition is only answering the question "which characters are played by the best players." Theoretical rankings answer the question "which characters have more of the qualities people think are good", limited by how accurate the estimation of the relative importantance of qualities is. Another option might be "which characters are played best by the A.I.", which would be more objective but more tedious. Anyone got a copy of ps2 VF4, a little scripting knowhow, a microcontroller, and a lot of time to spare watching A.I. files duke it out? /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

For Aoi's YY stance evade throw escape:

When you go , always put +to escape the side throw

When you go , always put +to escape the side throw

In fact you can put in the command after the throw escape, so the input will be as follow:

1) ++~~+~
2) ++~~+~

Cheers

 

Doh!

Yeah, or to dodge, then or to escape. That's what I get for trying to offer advise without thinking first. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

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Someone could purely gather stats on all the characters and make match ups.

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I like this idea, but what bothers me about a theoretical ranking and real world application is exactly what factors are included in such a ranking? The determination of what variables are important in the rankings are going to be initially debatable, and probably highly subjective. Playing Namco fighters, I've always placed a great deal if importance in quick hitting, fast recovery moves, but it seems that this type of thing has less importance in VF.

Moreover, it seems this SC2 ranking is being done primarily by highlighting tools that one character has to exploit a lacking aspect in another. I think Arney hit the nail on the head when he said VF was, "...much more rigidly structed, a very forced PRS system." I don't really see any glaring exploitative tools one character has, and to the other extent, I don't see any glaring absences either.

Is there, then, another way of evaluating VF's characters, or maybe am I missing something?

 

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sixtwo said:
I don't really see any glaring exploitative tools one character has, and to the other extent, I don't see any glaring absences either.


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Yeah you're right but imo Goh needs better range (at least one move), a better juggling game, and a more practical way of getting to Tsukami.

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sixtwo said:
Is there, then, another way of evaluating VF's characters, or maybe am I missing something?

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I dunno but I think every character has tougher or easier match ups imo. For instance I think a good Kage would have a tougher match up against a good Akira than a good Shun. There isn't any obvious tiers but I think there are good and bad match ups. (Just an opinion guys)

On the VFDC Ranking Project I think it would be interesting and probably would help alot of ppl.

 

The only way I could see this working, is if there's some code involved. IE -- with frame states, choosing moves, etc. This of course goes against the very grain of VF. IE - someone that sucks could escape throws just as well as another one.

This is essentially what Battle Arena is, but you have 5 moves, hit "fight" and the rest is done for you. Rather boring.

 

Stuff to respond to, but to quickly nitpick on Oni's post (sorry!)...

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Yeah you're right but imo Goh needs better range (at least one move), a better juggling game, and a more practical way of getting to Tsukami.

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Goh is not a long range character, but he does have a few tools: , , , , , +. I don't buy the argument that he needs more.

As for a better juggling game, why is that important? Isn't the goal, ultimately, to be able to take off chunks of damage? The concept of "juggles" in of itself has no meaning (unless you want to stress on the idea that a character will ultimately end on the ground after a juggle, giving rise to okizeme). Goh can definitely take chunks of damage in a hurry.

As for Tsukami, I don't agree it's a position that Goh necessarily wants to be in as nothing is guaranteed. I would rather use whatever advantage he had from a Tsukami for something else. Now, if the Tsukami flowed from a sabaki (which it already does) or a true catch throw (which it kind of is, after sabaki) then that would be different.


To return to the central argument, I don't think numerical analysis of moves and move properties is the way to go. It would simply be too difficult and complicated...I think the only way a theoretical ranking project is possible if we focus in on advantage/disadvantage in match-ups.

To me, the most obvious match-up problem would be Jeffry vs Shun, primarily because it is easy for Shun to play a machi game against Jeffry and drink up (and when drunk, I argue Shun is the strongest in the game). Can we at least say that Shun-Jeffry is 6-4? Can this be a general consensus amongst VF players?

That said, I must clarify that I disagree with:

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I dunno but I think every character has tougher or easier match ups imo. For instance I think a good Kage would have a tougher match up against a good Akira than a good Shun.

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I have to strain in order to think of mis-match issues, so I don't think there are many. Also, Oni, how would you justify your Kage example? I'm curious, as it is not obvious to me.

 

4-6 maybe /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I still don't see why single Shun out. Yeah, he's tricky, but I think Lion is just as, if not more for that matter, and I use both of them.

I have a few friends that play Jeff, and I have to work just as hard to beat them as I do any of their other characters. Yer Jeff is apparantly a different story. One good think Jeff has against SHun is that his best (or almost best) throw is -2 DP.

 

Y'know...it's funny...me and the fellas talk about matchups abunch & when I mentioned this thread one of the things we tossed around was how compelling the Shun v Jeffry matchup is. Jeff has that wicked range & damage + anti dp potential while Shun has...139lbs and then all the shit Shun has. It's pretty clear to me that with 16 drinks or more, Shun is the favorite but it is hard for me to see how Shun has a clear edge (ie 6-4) on Jeffry with less than 10 drinks. I don't know...perhaps its the vf2 low throw warp that has me thinking Shun v Jeffry is something special. Another thing that pokes out at me is GP's occasional mention of the ferocity of evade>knee...maybe that's analysis from an Aoi perspective but seriously, Jeff only needs to guess right 2 times per round to hold his own...Shun doesn't have this power until he's already unmanageable.

Matchups I dig:

Pai v Jacky: Too much speed vs not enough this time...but Jacky doesn't have to get overfancy to bust things up. Plus, Pai is light but this only gives Jacky nicks here and knacks there.

Lau v Akira: THE MEN. I've played more Lau v Akira than anything else, so I have to mention this. Akira's just heavy enough to make Lau adjust but Lau has so many little guessing games & gets his throws so easily that Akira's gotta do something special or play kinda safe to do well. Perhaps this is just my own demons talking.

Vanessa v Lion: Mentioned already. William hates Lion for some reason (long range low attacks, constant pressure and nasty oki are my guesses) while surely Chibita lacks a little of the Vanessa love. I shouldn't compare these two but at evo2k3 I told William to "come with all the garbage" before his match-up with Chibita in the tourney & IceCold managed to grab the first round they played together. His Vane was out of practice even. Humans taking rounds from Chibita aside...Vane can slow Lions flow down a bit.

I don't know. The VF roster abounds with interesting matchups. Each character (not to mention player) makes you approach the fight at least slightly differently. Even if the most severe imbalance conceivable is 6-4, we are dealing with a well tuned game.

 

Dude, I'm trying to take the human element out of the equation here. My Shun IS probably better than my Jeffry, but that's beside the point!

The idea for this match-up example came mainly from the KSII tournament. It was that famous Jeffry player (always forget his name...the guy with the black-rimmed Oakely like glasses...Nagoto?) who had his butt whipped by this Shun player. I mean, it wasn't even close.

Now, why the match-up favors Shun: while Jeffry has long range attacks, they are linear, counterable, and not that fast executing anyway. No matter what the case, it still feels easy for Shun to keep running and back dodging away to drink. Shun doesn't even need to come within attacking range...just drink until he's 20+, then attack with , , and throws. Remember that to drink, Shun doesn't need to attack, but for the opponent to sober Shun, the opponent has to attack!

Knees are really risky against Shun in that he has a very damaging counter in (need I mention an additional at 16 drinks?). Also, while Jeffry has delay knee, Shun has delay chouwan (uncounterable too) so I'm not sure that would be a point of differentiation. Also, would delay knee necessarily beat ++,? Or would the knee completely whiff ++ at large disadvantage? Unsure, someone should test.

The main weapons in Jeffry's favor are his strong low throws (so Shun would have to be careful about low kicks), two useful sober throws, and most of all, against dodges and . Also, Shun doesn't have very many throws and this allows Jeffry to take more risks with throw-counterable attacks.

 

Hey Sanjuro,

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Pai v Jacky: Too much speed vs not enough this time...but Jacky doesn't have to get overfancy to bust things up. Plus, Pai is light but this only gives Jacky nicks here and knacks there.

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Hmm, I can buy how Jacky might have an advantage here. His inashi makes and dangerous for Pai and Pai has to be careful about getting MCed. Yet, Pai has and that takes care of a lot of Jacky's attacks (but she risks eating or ).

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Lau v Akira: THE MEN. I've played more Lau v Akira than anything else, so I have to mention this. Akira's just heavy enough to make Lau adjust but Lau has so many little guessing games & gets his throws so easily that Akira's gotta do something special or play kinda safe to do well. Perhaps this is just my own demons talking.

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To me, Lau vs Akira is EVEN. But I play neither to any great depth... One pro-Akira point is his shoulder ram, which goes under a lot of Lau's attacks in closed stance, and it's also difficult for Lau to avoid SDEs while attacking.

Yet, Lau can punish Akira badly for Akira's mistakes. Danny, alucard, comments?

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Vanessa v Lion: Mentioned already. William hates Lion for some reason (long range low attacks, constant pressure and nasty oki are my guesses) while surely Chibita lacks a little of the Vanessa love. I shouldn't compare these two but at evo2k3 I told William to "come with all the garbage" before his match-up with Chibita in the tourney & IceCold managed to grab the first round they played together. His Vane was out of practice even. Humans taking rounds from Chibita aside...Vane can slow Lions flow down a bit.

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Interesting one here. I'll restrict my comments to DS, since I don't know much about OS, but if you think about it there's no reason why Vanessa should be advantaged against Lion. She can't punish low attacks all that well. Her circular attack, while far ranging, is slow. Her staple attacks are even slower than Lion's. But she does have the dodge punch which is really good against everyone.

Yet, the perception is that Chibita is weaker against Vanessas.

 

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ice-9 said:


Goh is not a long range character, but he does have a few tools: , , , , , +. I don't buy the argument that he needs more.

As for a better juggling game, why is that important? Isn't the goal, ultimately, to be able to take off chunks of damage? The concept of "juggles" in of itself has no meaning (unless you want to stress on the idea that a character will ultimately end on the ground after a juggle, giving rise to okizeme). Goh can definitely take chunks of damage in a hurry.

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Well it's free damage your opponent is defenseless for a short period of time and it has psychological effects too : your winning the entire round and make one little mistake and catch a knee from Jeffry and all you can do is watch your life bar go bye bye. And like you mentioned it can help his okizeme game and maybe even his ring out game.

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ice-9 said:
As for Tsukami, I don't agree it's a position that Goh necessarily wants to be in as nothing is guaranteed. I would rather use whatever advantage he had from a Tsukami for something else. Now, if the Tsukami flowed from a sabaki (which it already does) or a true catch throw (which it kind of is, after sabaki) then that would be different.


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Well shouldn't it be a big part of his game ? You would think so, considering he's a judoka, ''he's not a long range character'' and that the Tsukami throws take almost half of his movelist. You're right, he probably doesn't need it that much but I think it could only improve his game not make it worse, but I may be wrong.

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ice-9 said:
That said, I must clarify that I disagree with:

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I dunno but I think every character has tougher or easier match ups imo. For instance I think a good Kage would have a tougher match up against a good Akira than a good Shun.

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I have to strain in order to think of mis-match issues, so I don't think there are many. Also, Oni, how would you justify your Kage example? I'm curious, as it is not obvious to me.

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Well like you said, Shun has to drink in order to be truly effective and use is full potential whereas Akira can go straight to business from the get go. That's one of the main reasons I think he's less of a threat (although he's still a threat) to Kage than Akira.

 

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To return to the central argument, I don't think numerical analysis of moves and move properties is the way to go. It would simply be too difficult and complicated...I think the only way a theoretical ranking project is possible if we focus in on advantage/disadvantage in match-ups.

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I think these things are two very different things, actually. Conducting a numerical analysis on the characters via a scoring function would inherently rank the characters individually. This would be complicated, but fun, and it's something I know myself and others have expressed interest in.

Advantage/Disadvantage match-ups has nothing to do with individual rankings of the characters. It would *rate* the 104 total possible match-ups. The Jeff-Shun example fits into this category.

<font color="yellow">.cheers.</font>

 

Llanfair:

Good point, but the primary assumption behind match-ups is that characters with more favorable match-ups (by degrees) in aggregate are better. The primary assumption behind numerical analysis is that the weighting behind categories correctly leads to which characters are better.

Numerical anaylsis and character match-ups are two different things, as you pointed out, but they are meant to describe the same thing.


Onistompa:

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Well like you said, Shun has to drink in order to be truly effective and use is full potential whereas Akira can go straight to business from the get go. That's one of the main reasons I think he's less of a threat (although he's still a threat) to Kage than Akira.

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Hmm, I'm not sure if I'm getting your point with the above. What has Shun got to do with your Akira-Kage example? This feels like two separate issues.

 

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The idea for this match-up example came mainly from the KSII tournament. It was that famous Jeffry player (always forget his name...the guy with the black-rimmed Oakely like glasses...Nagoto?) who had his butt whipped by this Shun player. I mean, it wasn't even close.


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I vividly remember this match. Magnum Jeffry was absolutely helpless in this match-up that had a backdashing, low poking Shun methodically rendering Jeffry helpless. I believe only two knees were landed the entire match (in the first round, Magnum lands a ++ and I believe Shun tried to punish with a throw. The other comes at the very end of the match against a backturned Shun, limiting the combo opportunity). Jeffry loses the first round and Shun goes in to round two with ten drinks - It's only downhill from there.

Shun/Jeffry 6/4? I can deal with that. /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

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Dude, I'm trying to take the human element out of the equation here.


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Yeah, but I'm saying that's not really fair. Some people have argued (this guy is weak against this guy) but there's too many variables. Just my opinion.

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Shun doesn't even need to come within attacking range...just drink until he's 20+,


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Do you have any clue how hard this is to do? If it's easy, then your competition deserves to get wasted for letting you get to +20 like that.

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Also, while Jeffry has delay knee, Shun has delay chouwan


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True, although it takes 6 drinks to do impressive damage. 6 isn't too bad... definitely easier to get than 10.

As for the question on the delayed knee vs. ++... it's been a while. That bitchy little move isn't always the most consistent. If you get good against Shun, you can time other things to eat it (Lau's if I remember properly. Again, it's all timing. I think the knee would win in this case, if the Shun mis-anticipated Jeff rushing in.

Sanjuro:
Aoi vs. Lei Fei has always been my favorite matchup.

 

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Do you have any clue how hard this is to do? If it's easy, then your competition deserves to get wasted for letting you get to +20 like that.

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My central argument is that it's easier for Shun to run away from Jeffry and drink than against other characters!

 

Examples? I find it just as hard not to get pummeled by him when drinking, so I generally don't do it.