VFDC Ranking Project?

Do you have the KSII DVD by any chance? Watch that Shun vs Jeffry match...there was only one Jeffry entry (I think) so the match should be easy to find.

 

Yeah, it's still here. I'll check it out and see. That's kinda outdated, but we'll see.

In Shun's defense... One thing I just thought of. Throwing a chowan from duck won't work. It'll always come out as . Something Jeff's got on the delayed side of things. Akira's duck->wait for the whiffed dodge->shoulder is much uglier though.

I guess if you ducked and immediately stood up, then did the chowan might work, but seems a bit riskier.

 

OK, I take back all that stuff about Shun vs Jeffry. God bless the !! It's the key to a dodging and slipping Shun, and you just have to take risks with Jeffry. It works out for Jeffry too in that Shun doesn't have many throws to begin with, and below 8 drinks doesn't really have any damaging ones either.

Jeffry is back in my circle of trust...

P.S. ++, usually beats delay knee.

 

VF4 underwent two minor revisions, from Ver.A Ver.B Ver.C (which the PS2 version was based off of).

From VF4 Ver.C, Sega created the major game revision, VF4:Evolution Ver.A

From Evolution Ver.A ==> Ver.B revision came out, and minorly changes balance once again.
- - - -
With that under consideration, we are talking about a game that has had a significant game revision, on top of three minor revisions to previous versions.

What ever "Ranking" potential there was, probably only applies to VF4 non-Evolution, seeing as most of the balance in the game is fair, for all aspects of each character, and Imho there is no clear advantage, one over the other character.
- - - - -
Now, I think this thread is going in a good direction, but I think Creed is already there /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif, and waiting patiently at that /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Creed's thread about ranking each move is much more accurate in my opinion, due the fact that most (if not all) of the end results of that thread will be based off of facts.

I am unsure if the consensus has been reached that ranking the characters accurately is unrealistic, and even impossible to do fairly. But possibly if we rank the moves, we can have a more accurate idea of how we can accomplish the purpose of this thread.

Basically what I am saying, is that with Creed's thread, if we work on it and analyze it correctly, it would efficietnly and effectively reduce the work of this thread by a significant margin.
- - -
Like say for example that Kage and Akira have seemingly consistent amounts of moves that are higher scoring in Creed's thread. And now let's say that the type of moves that are typically used to counter, or beat those moves out, are significantly lacking in Wolf, Lei, and Pai (this is all hypothetical remember /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif).

So therefore, we could (accurately?) arrive at the conclusion, that in certain aspects (and eventually overall), that Akira (or Kage) has more advantages over Pai (and Wolf/Lei) than they have over him.

Does this all make sense to you guys?

 

Re: Itchy Trigger Finger

I guess I double posted, sorry.... /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

Does this all make sense to you guys?

No, but thanks for all the directs to my thread /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

If I could do it, I'd put the 10 best players of each character in a room (best according to vf.net win percentage, assuming more than 500 games or so). Ask them to play each other round-robin style 100 times each, and ensure they all have the best possible controls and of course stretch it out over several weeks so that they don't have to deal with fatigue. Then have them do it again with 10000 dollars on the line.

Take the results, analyze the crap out of them... then say "I told you so, tiers exist" if the highest win percentages come from akira/kage/laus and say "I knew it all along, there are no tiers" if chibita has the best percentage with lion.

This to me is nice because it's based on hard numbers, but also accounts for all the intangibles that my ranking system will miss or handle poorly. It also accounts for specific matchup issues (which is the goal of this thread).

PS: have you seen this site? I downloaded a ton of SF footage off of it recently and enjoyed it a lot.

http://sk.redbit.ne.jp/~replay/game_movie.html

A ton of the links are dead, strongly recommend using flashget and the download-all feature, let the program sort out the live links. If there's anything in my collection that you don't have and wish you did, I'll be glad to send.

Learn patience in #gamecombos and you can get a ton of SF footage there. It's possible to set up a simple timer to automatically retry the busy bots that are serving files you want, so it's just a matter of leaving mirc running for a while and you'll eventually download what you need (if you have autoaccept on).

 

Note taken. I'll remember that next time you're here. SPeaking of, when might you be here again?

 

After talking with Kyasao this past week, I learned of what the tier rankings are in Tokyo. It's quite different as to what most Westerners would think it'd be.

Top Tier
1) Lei Fei
2) Aoi/Pai (Tie)
3) Sarah/Vanessa (Tie)

Bottom Tier
Jeffry & Brad

Middle Tier
everyone else

As for a bad matchup, I have to say that Sarah vs Lion favors Lion greatly. /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[ QUOTE ]
Shou said:

Top Tier
1) Lei Fei
2) Aoi/Pai (Tie)
3) Sarah/Vanessa (Tie)

Bottom Tier
Jeffry & Brad

Middle Tier
everyone else



[/ QUOTE ]

Very interesting. =) Did you hear how the tiers are
determined?

 

I've personally never had a problem with Lei Fei. I can't just smoke any Lei out there, but I can at least hold my own -- even against the likes of Joe.

You're right about the bottom tier -- I've never heard anyone say anything good about Brad. /versus/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Heh heh heh...to me this is good news and shows just how balanced VF really is. The divergence in views is just startling. I'm sure Kyasao has a good tap on popular opinion in Japan, but those proposed tiers are in such contrast to tournament representation of characters!

 

Problem is being that even then, that's only one region, and more than likely only one PART of one region, as most players only frequent a few specific arcades on a daily basis.. There's major differences even from city to city, in terms of overall level of VF play and characters used.

Also, everyone I've asked to tier, from Heruru to my BF, has given a distinctly different account.

My consensus?

Any attempt at tiering = bullshit

Simply because there are so many extraneous factors one has to take into account.

 

Who's your BF?

I still hold to my Brad statement... which is a fact. *I* have never heard anyone say anything good about him. It's usually, "Brad's weak - I ditched him" or something along those lines. Not raelly high level players, but not weak by any stretch.

I do know quite a few people that say Vanessa's a "weak" character, despite the fact that a couple of common friends can use her abusively.

 

Il answer in her absence.
Its NYJacky.

 

Tokyo Tier stuff

This is interesting stuff. It's neat that the game is balanced enough that people's tiering is different in different places, unlike some games where the conensus on some characters is pretty much a done deal (coff*JIN*coff!!@#).

Here's some information (thanks Shou!) that might help explain kyasao's reasoning... some of it is direct and some I'm inferring.

First - yes this is what kyasao thinks, and there's no translation error
And yeah, this is what the majority of tokyo believes. Zerochan made the point that different areas will end up with different tiers, and kyasao concedes that, so there's your grain of salt. Still, tokyo has the highest concentration of good players and the highest all-around level of play in japan, arguably.

Lei - nearly everything he has is good apparently. "It's easier to list what ISN'T good" Look at some of these moves and you can see that they're comparable to many of the basic moves in the game (knee, elbow, sidekick), but subtly better.

Lei Specifics -

ff+P - it's lei fei's version of an elbow (14 frame mid P), doesn't need a stance to use, but unlike most elbows it's very safe, it pushes you back on guard. If you try to d+P afterwards, you'll eat another one. Also, it's +6 on MC (pretty nice). I guess it doesn't stagger, but so what, +6 on MC is still a guessing game whether the opponent has to struggle or not. It's a supremely hot tool near a wall, if you get the palm to knock them into the wall for a wall stagger, you can get ~105 pts of damage easily.

df,df+P - sets up an immediate 50/50 guess even on guard, and it's a pretty nasty one... float combo or throw. It's basically a knee (17 frame float combo starter) but because it's 2 hits you can do one, be safe on guard, and still have the initiative. Vs crouchers it staggers and you can simply tap P on reflex to connect with the second one and take your float combo (or enforce a standard stagger guessing game). That makes this one of the most damaging ways to punish people for merely crouching and guarding.

df+K - a surprisingly good sidekick, I used to think it was worse than anyone's sidekick, but apparently it's better. It's typical sidekick damage, -5 on guard 0 on hit, just like e.g. lau's... but unlike other sidekicks, it doesn't push the opponent away on MC. So while lau's sidekick might give him +8 on MC, the opponent is far enough that for you to pressure them you have to waste a dash. With lei you get a large advantage on MC and don't need to dash. One sidekick MC + correct guess on your part can lead to about 50% damage. Did I mention it's 1 frame faster than a standard sidekick at 15 frames?
Lei's standing K is also kinda quick at 13 frames.

uf+K+G - we all know this is hot. A lot of characters get pretty strong 16 frame moves, but this one hops over low punches so it doesn't need a large advantage to stuff a low punch. The combo followup is pretty decent, comparable damage to akira and lau's b,f+P flop combos.

df+K+G, K - ever see hereru toss this out (even in tournament play vs minami) and wonder "what...the..fuck." This silly looking move is actually quite good, not just showing off or screwing around. The roll gives a float combo on any hit, and it's safe. You can wait to see if it's blocked and delay a while before unleashing the second roll (which also gives a nice float combo on hit).

Stance stuff -

Arrow punch [DM]P+K - obviously pretty nice, a long range mid that gives medium to large frame advantage on any hit and isn't counterable if guarded. We all know about the charged version too.

[DM]P,P+K - this familiar sequence gives lei +7 just on guard and a whopping +21 on MC (it's also a guaranteed throw opportunity). It's a fantastic spacing tool, it pushes the opponent away and gives you frame advantage, and if they don't want lei running up and inflicting a guessing game on them (i.e. f,f+P or throw) then they're forced to backdash to get out of trouble.

[IN]PP - I see this used in clips a lot. I think I can see why after checking some of the stats. It gives lei +3 just for making the opponent guard it, and the second punch is mid so you can't just duck. The first punch comes out pretty quickly. If lei fei enters [IN] stance right in front of you, he can put you in trouble just by tossing out a quick PP. It leaves you in stance and gives you access to a followup IN d+K or IN K+G.

[IN]K+G - It discourages people from crouching or low punching reflexively when lei enters IN stance. It comes out quickly and is a nasty trick after the [IN] PP. No followups are guaranteed that I know of, but if you successfully hit them with it you can really chew them up by forcing them to guess between your ff+K (which resets the situation and goes back into [IN] stance) or going for a throw. Probably the nastiest shit I've ever seen is hereru do this move against another lei, then do a quick ff+P which wall staggered them, then flow into the wall combo of death, uf+K --> [IN]PP, [IN]PP, [IN]K+G for the kill.
An interesting trick when people get used to seeing this puntkick and guard high - use [IN]b+K,K and you've got small advantage on guard, and med. advantage if the kicks hit.

Sweeps and [IN] sweep - while the stats don't show it, these are pretty good sweeps. The normal one doesn't knock down but gives +2 on MC, so follow with ff+P to stuff their attack. The stance version of the sweep dodges before the animation, allowing lei to beat pretty much any attack coming his way and knock the opponent down. Hereru loves using it.

Throws - lei has jacky's throw game pretty much, but where jacky's df throw is just decent, lei's is killer, over 70 pts. Picture jacky with a TFT instead of one of his usual throws.

That's about it on lei. I'm sure there are other subtle bits I missed and most of this isn't from kyasao, just from NA player's experiences. Lei seems to have a lot of obscure stuff that you just wouldn't know about without playing him over and over - the tiger stance P+K,P that gives advantage on guard, or the df+P+K which is sorta like a dodging elbow, or the u+K+G spin kick that can float for a [DM]Px followup on some hits... I could go on but I'll let someone more qualified add to this (hopefully someone can get more good stuff directly from the japanese).

Aoi Specifics -

Aoi's got some funny stuff that seems to allow her to keep advantage/pressure on the opponent even when disadvantaged.

First, look at her d+K+G sweep. You can sort of poke with a full circular move for free by doing d+K+G, P+K+G (YY stance) --> YY dodge --> side throw escape --> X. If the opponent attacks right away it will get reversed or dodged. If they try to throw, they will do a side throw and you simply enter one escape to avoid it. Even delayed attacks might not work because the dodge window is huge and you have to worry about X. X can be either the canned dodging chop, which crumples for a nice combo, or it can be a 270 throw or some other flowchart. Basically the opponent needs to sweep in retaliation to your sweep or guess what you'll do at point X. Aoi's ability to go into canned YY stance makes even simple PPP a threat... aoi PPPSweeps or PPPknees, then YY's and dares you to try to counterattack.

Other reasons YY is quite nice - after key moves she can use it to reverse and punish over 70% of the useful attacks in the game. Some YY reversals lead to decent damaging followups (the knee reversal gives you 50+ pts) and others lead to nasty flowcharts (P reversal to jab in the back to low back throw if they try to turn around with fuzzy guard).

Aoi's gut stab sabaki takes out high punches, mid punches, and elbows for a nice reward, 60ish pts + the TR guessing game. It's throw counterable, but that's all... I'd take that over goh's universal punch sabaki any day ^^ ...

Double stop is basically a 13 frame elbow, gives frame adv on MC and vs crouch defenders. It's -4 if it just hits normally. It's not what it once was in version C (the word there is "cheap") but it's still a nice tool. It has the added advantage of ducking under high punches.

Throws: Aoi's throw game is evil. 60 point throws ending in , 60 for , 50+ pt throws ending in , and a strong 45 pt throw that's also a wall throw when your back is to the edge. When the wall's in front of you, P+G becomes a serious threat: P+G~ --> P (wall stagger) --> b,df+P+K crumple --> f+K,K --> pounce. Half your life, ouch.

Lastly, one thing kyasao stressed a lot is that the girls (aoi and pai and vane) have a big advantage by having 11 frame jabs. An 11 frame P allows you to easily avoid nitaku guessing games when you're -2.

I don't have any more specific theories on sarah or vanessa but maybe shou wants to add some. Sarah I can see being strong for the following, which is half experience and half stuff I've heard:

-She gets 80+ pt combos from a 16 frame move (dragon cannon), and lots of small but damaging floats from no-counter hits, even vs crouchers: b+P+K, df+P,K, u+K works on anyone for example. You can also get d+P+K,K --> db+K+G, K --> u+K. In general both sarah and aoi have scary options to punish people who stay down: Aoi can ground throw, sarah can do the db+K+G,K --> u+K.

-There's also the d+K+G major counter combo which makes it one of the best low attacks in the game, comparable to akira's df+P+K but not as easy to spot.

-Check out b+K MC --> [FL]P,K .. .that's a 55 pt combo from a fast mid kick... one that gives a large advantage when guarded and staggers crouchers. Wtf.
Almost all of the moves that enter flamingo stance give sarah a nice advantage when guarded and set up immediate nitaku guessing games.

Sarah's not invincible of course - regarding the sarah vs lion matchup kyasao mentioned, lion's big gun is the meteor punch. After a guarded elbow sarah can flow into the chop or knee, but not vs lion... he can just sabaki both followups. The same applies to flamingo, qcb+P beats every single option except u+K and d+K. Kyasao calls this a 10-0 matchup for lion. I guess we have one entry to start with in the VFDC ranking project, to get back on topic

 

Re: Tokyo Tier stuff

Wow that was educational. I gotta know how Vanessa is top tier. Elbow Sabaki maybe? Or maybe because the only thing she really sucks at is floating people. Anyway, aren't the fast punches for the ladies meant to make up for their light weights? It's not like if one these hoes hits the sky they're not gonna get reamed with biggest combos.

 

Re: Tokyo Tier stuff

Good read there CreeDo! I don't mean to pick nits but icecold always bitches about Vane's "elbow class standing " to which I reply "her sabaki elbow is her standing " and then I grab his ass and he runs. Isn't it Sarah, Aoi & Pai with the 11 frame ?

VF is top tier.

 

Re: Tokyo Tier stuff

re: vanessa... I dunno what else aside from the cut upper makes her top tier, I hope shou or someone can get more info/opinion from kyasao on that one.

As for sarah getting killed by meteor punch - two things - it's sort of a risk/reward thing. I thought of the just-guard-and-throw bit too. But the point is you're risking a non guaranteed throw vs a painful crumple combo, and sarah can't get predictable interrupts even when she works for and gets +2 to +4 frames. The qcb+P eats dragon cannon and all worthwhile flamingo options, so sarah guards right? That means when she gets initiative, she stands there and guards, and when lion adapts, he gets to eg throw her. Both players can adapt, but the damage potential favors lion - the risk of non guaranteed throw damage vs the reward of a crumple combo or getting a free grab on sarah as she stands there.


Just a thought imho blah de blah. I don't play them.

While I agree it sounds very theory fighterish, apparently the japanese are playing at a level where theory fighter is reality fighter. I'd never buy 11 frame jabs as being Too Good either except if I hear it from kyasao, I feel I gotta lend it credit.

 

Re: Tokyo Tier stuff

Creed: What move is [IN] PP for Lei Fei? As far as I know he doesn't have double punch move from here that leaves him in [IN] stance. He can only do a single punch that puts him in [DM] stance.