Virtua Fighter popularity... Relaunch?

I was gonna bring the Mishimas up earlier when people were whinging about Akira being the poster boy but forgot lol.

There's also Ryu in SF, yeah he's got all the basic SF moves but he's not the easiest character to play.

And who's the poster boy in Soul Calibur, Mitsurugi?

 

Brad and Goh were on the Evo cover with Akira. They got dropped for Eileen and El Blaze and Akira. Who got dropped for Taka and Jean and Akira. Who will get dropped for two characters and the guy who looks like Ryu, so no. Jean will fade into the background after R just like all the other characters and Akira will still be on the cover, prompting people who have no business trying to learn the game using him to make that their first pick.

 

Newbies might not be able to EWGF with Mishimas, but they can still 1,1,2 or 1,2,2, mash out axe kicks and rising uppercuts.

Ryu can combo, but you can still get that fireball and hurricane kick very easily.

And Mitsurugi? A, A. B, B. 3B and 1A. Psssh. Easy.

What does Akira get you for mashing? Almost all of his decent moves are /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif or /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif and then a combination of something else I already mentioned. You get dick mashing with him.

 

Won't matter and is irrelevant. Goh, Brad, Eileen and El Blaze were made to be visually niche in VF. Now, just look at Jean's visual appearance. His design was ultra calculated to appeal to the masses.


Ryu is always top billed in every SF game, yet everyone plays Ken...

...

...
what?

 

SF4 is about the only game one can begin to make the claim that Ken is more popular than Ryu (and still globally Ryu is more popular).

The problem is this generation has not had the experience fighting wise most of us had growing up (me personally SF1,2, Mk 1,2,3, KI 1, 2, Tekken 1, 2, 3 etc you get the point). This is the Halo generation I tried to explain a move to some younger guy by saying "its the same motion as sub-zero's freeze" and his response .... "what".

The moves and characters cant be made any simpler the motions in all fighting games are the same motions dp, qcf, hcf, and 360. So people unable to do the moves are those who simply havent played enough fighters and thats ok but they need to learn.

Tekken is successful because of their overall package. Players aren't discouraged by the long movelist for some characters (Hwaorang). Ease of executing moves hasn't stopped SF4 scrubs from figuring out dp (shoryuken) and 360 (spd).

Better overall package = better sales = more players for us to face = more fun for everyone.

 

And how many people are trying Street Fighter for the first time? PS Ken is always right there with Ryu. Ultra calculation won't matter if he's another tiny figure on the box come VF6 (if SEGA even makes one any time in the next 10 years). If people have to play through the game to find the well rounded character = MISSION FAILURE. The box cover should TELL newbies who to play.

What it looks like to a newbie. He requires more complex joystick motions than most of the characters. It seemed pretty obvious what I was saying there. It doesn't really matter. Most of the people around here scream that Virtua Fighter shouldn't change anything substantial, but going back as far as the ACPC page, people have been wondering why more people don't play the game. With the exception of a 20 dollar anomaly in the form of VF4Evo, things haven't changed a whole lot in the past ten years. Every game that comes out, it's the same stuff from this community, but no one wants to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

You win. Keep things the same. Watch the support for the game continue to wither.

 

Where did people say this? Maybe we want changes but to something that would actually matter, and not how much space a certain character has on the cover art of the game case.

You know what would help VF6 or whatever? If it actually was a better game then VF4: FT as well as introducing something new and groundbreaking to the gameplay, something VF5 FAILED at doing.

Tekken has more moves, is MORE complex in VF in some areas, their poster boys are notorious for their difficult execution etc, yet it manages to outdo VF right now both in arcades and consoles.

Maybe something so simple like Sega stop being isolationist dickheads could change everything.

 

SRK motions were given DF,DF command shortcuts in SF4 specifically for scrubs according to Ono the creator of the game. Similarly, lead balancer (what a joke of a title looking at HDR) of SF2HDR, David Sirlin, made Tiger Knee motions QCF and made 360 motions HCF,B or HCF,B and made mashing moves come out in three presses where it was five before. So those motions CAN and ARE simplified in the new Capcom SF games. They've enormously dumbed down some of the most longstanding FG motions to appeal to scrubs.

Virtua Fighter has versions of this. You can escape guard single throw in VF5R by holding direction and throw. Wolf's giant swing has two throws, one for slow inputs, and one for fast (or competitive inputs). But these are nowhere near as drastic as changing the things that SF4 and HDR have in put wise.

You don't figure anything out. You pause the game menu or look at your manual for a move list.

Nope. VF4EVO got the best reviews and was the most complete package of any game (not just fighting games) but didn't sell as well as it should have. It's all about proper marketing and knowing when to release a game. If Sega did a giant holiday promotion with VF or something like that they'd sell more copies than releasing a terrible port (VF5 PS3) and then a whispered announcement for the 360 version.

This Christmas VF5R on PS3 and 360. VF4FT on PS2, PSP, and Wii. Just go all out. And of course tons of DLC and VSHG type stuff.

Capcom specifically hired a Western marketing firm to do research to see what characters would appeal most to a Western (American) audience. The character that Capcom paid most attention to was Viper.

Sega needs to do stuff like this. Find out what gamers want and (shock!) give it to them.

Show me the mode in Third Strike, Tekken anything, SF2HDR, or SFIV where it tells the player which characters are hard and which ones are easy to play as...what game other than VF4EVO has anything like what you are asking for?

 

Yes Im aware of the shortcuts I didn't mention them because they were unwanted changes (several pro players have complained about this change and find the shortcuts a hinderance as opposed to helpful).

By good overall package Im referring not just to the gameplay mechanics and other nifty features but the game as a whole (marketing included). VF4 evo was a good game but it was not recognizable outside of hardcore gamers.

The most recognizable game is the one that in the end always draws the crowd (good marketing and good game are needed).

Also as far as a game telling which character is easy it is done in plenty of games. Tekken (boxart and story)and SFIV (boxart and movie) make the "easier" characters shine. As interesting as other characters story's are they dont have the same level of depth or detail as the main/"easier" characters.

 

For the most part Akira has gotten easier and easier to control with each iteration of VF.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/db.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif is really really easy for someone with a couple of thumbs and most of their fingers.

/forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/df.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/g.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif looks flashy enough and isn't any harder than anything any other character has.

The /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif string is a decent little mix up and the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif, /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif + /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/k.gif variant even makes the /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/d_.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif combo (which requires delay/dash/frame kill after /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/b.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/f.gif /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/p.gif) work no problem.

Sure he doesn't have 90mph walking speed & you have to move that funny little stick or joypad around but VF5 Akira is a character a new guy can have success with out of the gate.

And really. Dural? Dural is some classic shit. Stop the Hate.

 

BOX COVER. Ryu/Ken, Jin, Ryu and Ryu/Ken. You can mash out SOMETHING cool with those guys.

If you can't see that the story is important to casual people, then I don't know what else to tell you. Who is on the box cover DOES matter because it's who your average person will try first. Just because the Mishima's BEST moves require stricter technique, doesn't mean you can't have a lot of fun without them. Akira? Dude gets a mid elbow and maybe a double kick if you're not so hot on the stick and MASHING WON'T GET YOU SHIT. People need to be able to do a little of this or they will lose interest in the game. I have no issue with Akira's movelist design. I have an issue that the most difficult character in the game to play from an execution standpoint is the one SEGA tells newbies to play. And whether you want to accept this or not, who game companies place the most prominently on the covers and posters is who they are telling newbies to give a try.

For the record, I agree with you on the VF4->VF5 transistion, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms that I don't want to get into with anyone.

EDIT: Removed some unintended condescending wording.

 

Are you serious? VF4 sold over a million copies. 4EVO was a greatest hits (in the U.S.) and sold well (not as well as VF4 though). VF4EVO also won many awards in Western magazines and online publications and 4EVO regularly appears on the same publications' greatest games of all times list.

Let's take IGN. 4EVO has been on IGN's top 25 PS2 Game of all time list every time that they've done it. It's made their Top 100 games of the year and all times list often. And was #100 out of 100 for reader's choice of greatest games of all time. The Virtua Fighter series was named #25 of the 25 most important VG franchises on IGN also. The readers and writers of IGN know 4EVO enough to include it on those lists every year.

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/928/928579p6.html
http://top100.ign.com/2007/ign_top_game_63.html
http://ps2.ign.com/articles/772/772296p2.html
http://games.ign.com/articles/748/748906p1.html
http://top100.ign.com/2006/091-100.html

The only game that the hardcore followed that the casual gamers didn't was 4FT.

 

Well, new players can now mash P+K,P+K. And get a combo with Akira!

 

I agree with you on both accounts.

 

The cost to make video games with the same level of relative graphics and gameplay innovation has really risen this genereation. Even if SEGA were able to break a million games total, that's not good enough anymore. Tekken sells in the 3-5 million range. Virtua Fighter's best selling game (excluding VF2 since the Saturn was not very popular outside of Japan) needed two versions and one of them to be 20 DOLLARS. SEGA doesn't seem to have as much luck when they want full price for their games. To get even HALF of the sales of the Tekken series, SEGA needs to reel in more casuals.

If you think SEGA makes enough money on the Japanese arcade scene alone, why are they considering dropping the game after VF5R? And other than crafting gameplay modes for the home release, why wouldn't a company want to recoup more of it's development costs and maximize profits through console releases (for work that's already done)? It seems like a lot of people have about the same amount of business common sense as SEGA when they make comments that nothing needs to change and that the game should just focus on being an arcade game.

Consider this:
XBOX 360 Units By Country
1.01M Japan
17.00M America
11.75M Others

Playstation 3 Units By Country
3.04M Japan
8.29M America
10.22M Others

Japan: 4.05. Everyone else: 47.26. I really think that being cognizant of the things people outside of Japan would like in a game might make good business sense. Can those numbers be any more clear?

 

VF4: Evo was only $20 in USA, everywhere else it was full price.

Nobody is saying that. Some of us just don't think you're focusing on anything that would actually matter. It seems you're caught up in this "the guy on the box!" thought still.

What they should first and foremost focus on is actually make the game the king of arcades again, and they need to do it by A) Stop being greedy dickheads that think they can treat people however they like and get away with it and B) Focus on making the game better instead of Bingo Fiesta.

This is what's important now, they can debate which character to emphasize on the cover art later.

 

USA or North America? Because North America is more than a third of the PS2's combined total. Further:

VF4/EVO Japan America Others Total
Total Sales 0.56m 0.72m 0.43m 1.71m

Sold more in America than anywhere else, and I'm sure that 20 dollar deal helped out. Something else that I've completely forgotten to mention until now: Relying on one market to make your money has always been silly, but Japan has been more resistant to this new generation of consoles than America or Europe. If rising costs aren't enough, this fact alone SHOULD make SEGA shift it's focus.

But it won't. /forums/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

Don't confuse what you're saying with what other people are saying. Other people in this thread ARE saying that. If you read the whole topic, "the guy on the box" is only part of my overall points in terms of how little thought SEGA gives to SELLING the game, rather than just MAKING the game. You are actually the one who have become obsessed with that part of my argument in an effort to marginalize the rest of what I was saying (either that or you haven't really read the topic).

EDIT: How does being king of the arcades sell more copies? Selling more copies on the home consoles means they have more money to throw back into R&D and perhaps invest more into being the "king of the arcade". You need MONEY to do all of that shit. SEGA isn't making it on Virtua Fighter to the level they need. So they need to retool HOW they approach the series, and trying to be king of the arcade has been the focus of the last 15 years. Try something else.

 

end of the day that should be the way to go, quality endures you compromise that and well...

 

I think people just like to play games everyone else is playing, imo. So you end up doing whatever it takes, just to be able to play it with everyone else. This isn't even exclusive to video games. If everyone is playing and enjoying a certain thing you're going to do whatever it takes to be included(as for fighting games go, that includes being able to execute the tough moves).

Sega just destroyed the chance for others to play their game, by keeping the machines exclusive to Japan. I bet R might fall a lil bit further down too. There aint even any rivalries in vf5r because that shit is just stuck in Japan.

And then Sega closed down some arcades too? hahaha

Yo if R even comes out for console, which it probably won't, but say it does... there isn't even any incentive for your average fighting game fan to even play because no one else is playing, and then when they look abroad they see only Japan was playing it, and it wasn't even the #1 game being played.

Take the VF sunglasses off real quick, I had took them off a while back. We all know VF is an excellent game, but maybe just maybe, VF5R isn't as good at T6BR. It's not just gameplay, it's got to be the overall package that needs to deliver.

 

You're wondering how they will make money? Do you know every time someone puts 100 Yen into the arcade to play VF5, Sega gets 32 Yen out of those 100 (this info coming from an arcade operator my friend talked to in Japan)? Did you know that Sega owns more then half the arcade market in Japan so in most cases they get the other 68 Yen as well

PLUS

Arcades have to pay a fee for VF.net, player have to pay for a VF.net account, pay for cards etc.

And you're wondering how they're supposed to make money from arcades? Do you think they're keeping the game arcade exlusive to Japan for philantropical reasons?

AGAIN, the key point here is to make the game better so more people will play it in the arcades, that is the lifesblood necessary for everything else to happen. Trying to make it more console friendly is no guarantee that they'll sell more, SF4 sold pretty much entirely on name recognition, something VF apparently can't.

And finally, I have to say that previously when Jide showed me the sales figures for VF5 on console they really weren't bad....I mean, there was certainly 1 or 2 more digits in the figure then I expected. And Sega certainly can't expect more when they put absolutely zero PR into it.