What Future Fighting Styles Would U Like To See In The VF Series

Actually, ba-gua and a few chinese styles have very hard, linear strikes....

 

This isn't part of our discussion or anything; just some very interesting facts about Akira's style. There are many other web-pages, but this one gives the largest historic-account (probably legend) and description that I've seen thus far. If this is so, then Akira's only half-complete...knowing only Baji and not Pigua.

Some Baji info

On a side note, I wonder how many people called GM Li cheap /versus/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

This isn't addressed to anyone in particular, just two cents thrown into a thread.
I'm not a fighting arts completist or practitioner, overall, but I've often
thought that martial arts is not supposed to be rigid in its representation by an
individual. If every individual has different weight, different stamina and agility,
the art form should conform to the body, not the body to the form. Akira performs his
particular version of a form, but it's his body type, his individual power, that allows him to practice
it. If he was light as Shun, his power would be diminished, so the form wouldn't work nearly as
well. Fighters have to assess what they are made of and build their style around
what they are, I'd think.

Akira does whatever that martial form of his is HIS way, because he's built for it. A different guy would have
to perform the same form differently to accentuate his strengths and detract from the weaknesses.
Arguments over what any fighting form should look like isn't productive. It's interesting, but not terribly
important. Whether a Japanese or Chinese form does or doesn't have aspects of the other, like kicking, is
based on the individuals using it. The philosophies are obviously different, but most real practitioners learn
what gives them the most advantage and highlights their strengths, whether it's kicking or
striking, or doing handflips or grappling or whatever. Anyhow, good thread here.

 

Hmmm... I think, like a couple of other guys on the board, that wing chun would be a great addition. However, having a large character (as some person mentioned earlier) doing wingchun would be rather odd. The main emphasis of wingchun is quick rapid strikes at vital areas at the throat, face (eyes, ears, nose), sternum, xyphoid process, and so on so forth along the center line of the body, all while using postioning and leg techniques to unbalance the opponent, as well as to block any kick techniques in the process.
A large character, while being able to better sabaki his opp. would fail in some key parts of the style, would is to change your position rapidly, while maintaining your balance and interrupt the opponent (kinda like an auto-dodge stance or something) (I know, I've sparred a 6'5 guy, very strong attacks to key parts of my attacking limb, but can't switch position as easily without "stripping" (SC2) or pulling and pushing the opponent to give oneself leverage. For example, Goh's normal kick is a simple mid front quick originating from the rear hip / buttocks. To counter this, you would switch to a sideways stance (think cat stance, except much more weighted on the rear leg, and sideways) and punch or move in from the stance; a large char would have trouble dodging this attack, simply because he's so large, however, he could simply lift his leg (weighted towards the front) to block and then hit the opp. I think a small, fast female character using wingchun would be a great addition to the VF cast.
If she could have loads of sabakis / parries / reversals(mainly short range or multi-part (extra commands if succeeds), and only maybe two stances, (defensive and neutral). The key to using her would be to use the reversals (all of them weak, kinda like the + reversal series Pai has, but less so : better recovery for both fighters) which would have directional commands afterwards to move one step in a particular direction (they do little damage, but give movement bonuses). Also, multi-part throws would be great (basically a bunch of hits that would be very fast, very hard to escape, but end up doing not much damage (say 50 total) split into maybe 4 parts.
Comments / questions / etc. welcome.

Note: I'm actually pressed for time and am cutting this short, and will edit this post later.

P.S. I think Caporeira would be interesting, but its kinda slow, needs good setups... I prefer fast styles /versus/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Also: I think traditional shotokan karate would be great, but it really isn't a style that lends it self to juggling, its more about one or two hits, hard linear strikes originating from the hara (the strength from the stomach and legs in low Akiraesque stances). So yes, he / she (probably he) would be similar to Akira, but would be more a strike and throw based character, along with basic parries, rather than a 'sticky' reversal / parry (albeit hard hitting) character like Akira.

"Plz don't flame me"

 

even though shotokan is quite different from haykyoukko-ken (or whatever), I don`t think it would look too different in a game of this sort. Of course he would have other qualities and stuff, but IMO it sounds like an Akira lookalike, only easier to play

 

I wish they would have put a THAI Thai boxer in the game. For those that think Brad is good enough to represent Muay Thai, well, ok he is awesome, but if you see somebody like Changpuek or any of the Lumpini or Radamjern champs in action then you will see the pure intensity and insanity of Thai boxing.

 

I'm currently a second degree brownbelt in Shotokan karate (gonna take third brown hopefully for christmas) and I dissagree with you *and* I'm not responding from a "second hand experience".

The resemblence between Akira and a S Karateka might be just the way he actually deliveres his blows with Kime and his breathing while doing it but that's about it. I fail to see why this should be pattented to Karate though, there are Kung Fu styles that have this aswell - not all are soft (I believe there are great similarities between basic Karate and Tiger style kung fu for example).
As evidence (or so it seems) of resemblence you bring up the principle of counterattack which shocked me abit. This is just a principle,.. even boxing has counter strikes in which you intercept your opponents attack to gain power in the strike and so on.

 

Do you initiate your movements by the your legs and use it as your control point? Do you gain more power by lowering your center of gravity to ground? Lastly when you stomp your foot for certain techniques do you feel like you're using more of your entire body?

There are not that many fighting styles that emphasizes on these principals as heavily as traditional karate and kungfu.

Boxing doesn't fight in a low stance nor do they lower their body to finish a techniques much. And tend use more of their hips and upper body to generate power which leaves their mainly for moving and creating speed. The reason for this is because they fight really close spacing from one another.


But again I could be wrong since I never practiced anything else. But I do have enough experience to know how body mechanics works to tell you that Baji Quan is probably the hardest of all eastern arts and is very much a like to JKA shotokan karate. And obviously I don't mean just visually but of course internally too.

 

Forget shotokan, VF needs Mishima style karate.

 

Yes, MASTER ONISTOMPA. /versus/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

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TP_KiwE said:

As evidence (or so it seems) of resemblence you bring up the principle of counterattack which shocked me abit. This is just a principle,.. even boxing has counter strikes in which you intercept your opponents attack to gain power in the strike and so on.


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In response to this, assuming its directed at me... one main point of wing chun's effectiveness is the counter attack, but to give an example... you know that the fist is connected to the wrist, the wrist to the forearm... so on, so forth. Now, in realtively traditional taekwon-do and in kenpo (I don't really know too much shotokan, although my sensei's style of kenpo is highly based on it (according to him)) the main way to block a punch, spear hand, etc. is to rotate the arm (forearm perpendicular to the ground in a circular motion into the opponent's wrist, attempting to damage the muscles, tendons, etc. in the process at least minimally at the same time launching a counter punch. While it is very "hard" and therefore quite damaging upon impact, it only has about two or three inches of clearance, so to actually block a punch in combat / full-contact sparring is quite difficult as it requires highly precise timing. Now in wing chun, one would lift their whole arm (one of the responses), extending directly from the chest, vertical fist, and using your forearm to impede their forearm, lifitng their punch up and slightly away from your centerline, using this same arm to probably grab and pull the offending forearm or throwing a palm into their face. This is the key difference in this particular example. This is what I meant by a "counterattack", its much more soft, and direct (using only one arm) while still protecting your centerline with minimal motion. I apologize for being so vague. I hope this clears it up a bit. /versus/images/graemlins/blush.gif Also, back to the original topic at hand... Mishima karate is kinda cool, but (as we know from Tekken 4) is horrendously cheap, and not Lau cheap where's it easy to avoid, but just plain cheap... (60% damage from a single juggle combo!!! --- in a game where juggling is so easy...)
Anyway, I still think wing chun would be a cool ass addition, although a TKD practictioner, if done right, might be a lot of fun (let's just hope its not a Hworang clone... he sucked.) Also... Goh needs to get rid of those high spinning kicks... they're so worthless...

 

The power in traditional karate comes from the gyration of your hip, not using your body weight (boxing has alot more bodyweight behind it's punches for instance - something you can clearly see on sandbag practicing and I had a hard time adjusting to when training kickboxing). So the answer is no - I don't gain power by lowering my center of gravity - I gain balance.
Ask at any Dojo in the world were the power in karate comes from and you'll get "the hip" as an answer.
Don't know why you keep emphazing that point. Karate has low stances, but once again - that's from Kung fu cause it's a development from it. So the things you (might) see similarities from are the inheratage from Kung fu (that hardly exists in modern karate in usage). Why do you don't just then accept the fact that it's from Kung Fu - something he's actually said to be pracitioning instead of trying to tie them, vaguely, to karate? Hell, even Jeffry has a low stance in VF - Lei Fei must have the lowest, other than that we have Pai and Lion and so on all with lowerstances then Akira.

I could also argue that you don't have as low stances when you really do fight (as it's hard to have speed then and use your back leg as a boost and speed is essentially more important then power these days) as you have when training Kihon (basic techniques).

I do, however, "initiate my movement with my legs" /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Look, would you honestly associate Akira with Karate if it wasn't for him so obviously being designed as one in his Gi and grunting all the time? If he looked like Lau and fought exactly the same - I don't think (as) many people would associate him with Karate as they do now. There are just so many things that Akira does that goes straight against every principle in Karate their is, the most obvious being his that is *far* from a oizuki straight punch (the 2 straight punches; ozuki and gyakuzki are the nr1 used moves in Karate) as his arm is bent. There are no knees used the way Akira does them. Dashing elbows does not exist (specially elbow techniques to the body -Hizaempi, with your elbow turned upwards) No palm strikes (this is a big point). No shoulderrams nor bodychecks.... The only thing I can find in his movelist that has similarity with *real* karate would be his doublefisted strike + and that's basicly just used in obscure Katas (and belive me, there's alot of things in old Katas that's never used).

As I said, karate actually does generate most of it's power from the hip (something by the sound of it you think boxing does and not karate), not "stomping" it's foot. In fact, you actually give up on using alot of your body weight just to maximize the power from the hip (as you punch with you back totally straight).

Baji Quan has things as backfists with open hands and so on and even open hands in blocking on another level. In fact, Akiras style has more similarities with a hard and more traditional view on Tai Chi (when it's used as a fighting tool) then with Karate. Honest.
You can quite clearly see this (if you have rather general martial arts knowledge) here: Bajiquan form
Hell, it even has more similarities with Hsing I (!) then karate Hsing I Phoenix Form

Akiras style (Bajiquan) is furthermore based on the principle of breaking the opponents gaurd and so on with small movement and then hammering him with a hard attack (strike like a bear). Karate is full out power all the way, atleast traditionally before the sport aspect fucked it up...

While we're talking exotic martial arts; take a look at Ba Chang Bien Hsing Kua here: Intresting body usage

Peace out (if you want to further debate you could msg me on irc or pop me in priv).

 

Hmm?

Uhm... SenoB. You can see who I replied to, it's in a little box that says [Re:kungfusmurf] /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I didn't reply to your post - in fact I hadn't really read it. I just reacted to what was being said about Karate in smurfs post as he didn't have "second hand experience" I assumed he trained Karate himself and therefor was intrested in his view on why Akira was similar (as I, as you can see, don't agree). Besides that I've read alot of Smurfs posts prior and he and Shadowdean and StonecoldSerb seems to be the ones with the most healthy opinions / views in the martial arts department imo. Didn't see the association in yours at all mate when lazy reading thru all the posts /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

But now, in reply; I don't think juggling potenial is something you need to think about when picking a martial arts style though as it can always be worked about. Don't know why you think a Karate practioner would (or even could) be more throw based then Akira though.

 

We still have to spar so I can smack you around a bit

 

I like to see Tai Chi - it kind of opposite to Shao Lin
how about alot of staggger move - require you to shake the controller like hell)
(after watching Jet Li movie - Tai Chi Master)
Isn't Wu Tang always rival to ShaoLin monk?

Eagle style and monkey style are good too

I wish Brad would be replace by a Thai's thai kickboxing

 

IMO, VF is already on Asian Martial Arts overload, with Kung Fu in general being REALLY prominent. Whether or not these Kung Fu characters represent all the Kung Fu out there correctly seems less important to me than the fact that VF has 8 of it's 15 fighters using Kung Fu. Add the 3 more that are using Japanse martial arts, and that leaves just 4 characters who are using non-Asian martial art styles, and even then Vale Tudo and Kickboxing have heavy influences from Jiujutsu and Muay Thai.

If Sega wants to make a Kung Fu game, that's fine, Kung Fu is really colorful and has a lot of history. But, I think there's a whole globe of things out there that don't come from China or Japan, maybe these things could be represented as well? I just think it'd be more interesting than trying to cover EVERY SINGLE facet of the Kung Fu universe.

It'd be cool to see a real Boxer, someone from Korea (TaeKwonDo), Commando Sambo, Krav Maga, Greco-Roman wrestling, Shoot Boxing (kind of Vale Tudo-ish). Even things like Capoera or a true Karate-ka would appeal to me more than another Kung Fu style. Seems like the existing Kung-Fu-ists could be expanded to include aspects of styles people want to see.

Also, I'd really like to see them tweak the existing characters to represent the styles better, ESP in the cases of Goh and Aoi. These characters should be able to function with almost NO striking. It'd give the game a lot of needed variety. I don't think any Aikido player would tell you the crux of the art was elbows to the body and sweeps.

Just my opinion, but if you watch almost ANY kind of modern sport fighting event, or a street fight for that matter, you're bound to see little to no Kung Fu. While I don't think the game should be dominated by realism, I think Sega should at least acknowledge this (seems like they're starting to, with Goh, Brad and Vanessa, even though Goh's fucked up).

Spotlite

 

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Hey. Capoeira is a cool art. Interesting, but I doubt that it would fit well with the current cast...though Sega has the ability to prove me wrong.


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I totally agree with him/her! Capoeira is a cool acrobatic flashy and, when done by somenone good, very fast martial art.
And another plus is, that it's a martial art which isn't originated in Asia, which makes it all the more interesting (and i played capoeira myself, that really helps in liking it)

 

Most froms of todays fighting styles are influence from asian arts. Europeans and Russians were mostly street fighters and boxers, Native americans fought with weapons. In fact, I can't really think of any other people that trained and fought equally with their hands and feet in addition to their weapon work but Asians. Most of the other cultures trained mostly with use of weapons and very little without. So, of course every martial art (that deals mostly with strikes) is going to be influenced by Asian arts.

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Also, I'd really like to see them tweak the existing characters to represent the styles better, ESP in the cases of Goh and Aoi. These characters should be able to function with almost NO striking. It'd give the game a lot of needed variety. I don't think any Aikido player would tell you the crux of the art was elbows to the body and sweeps.

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Very character in the game needs to able to strike. If Goh had no striking moves, it would be like playing against Royce Gracie in the early UFC years. He would just take you down and submit you or get KO'd tring. Same for Aoi, she would mostly wait and reverse you (witch you can already do for the most part). However, I agree that BJJ isn't represented very well in the game. If you read a couple of BJJ books, especially any of the Gracie's, you'll see that they use kicks, shoulder rams to knock you down, elbows, and punches to set up their throws and subs. Watch the next Pride contest with all the young Gracies in it, you going to see them throw kicks and punches to defend themselves. Also, I Said before in a couple of posts that Goh should have the GUARD being a BJJ character.

 

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Cloud said:
Also, I Said before in a couple of posts that Goh should have the GUARD being a BJJ character.

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Uh, Goh is Judo through and through.

BTW all you guys know that Muay Thai and BJJ are the only martial arts that actually work in real life right? All your Jeet Kune Do counterattack stuff you're talking about is BS. Sorry to burst your bubble. I can provide a library worth of resources and proof if anybody really needs it.

 

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