Why behind?-VF-bashing reality of malicious sites

Well if this is what have to happen for us to survive sign me up.. Vf is not a game where you should lose to a noob in the first place if you have a good understanding. I was always one who though the japanese was too picky about certain things. Everything that Shou doesn't like seems to be that whateva gave him a edge is gone now and he can't function without it. after all Fs is still vf5 so of they didn't like it then they damn sure wasnt going to like it now.

 

As I see it, Fuzzy-then-ETEG on paper is pretty durn good because it stops basic 2-choice up to -6 and and keeps you safe that split second later against a delayed throw or delayed linear move, like it says in the summary.

The implication here is that the defender in VF5 has quite a bit more leeway with respect to risk-reward than in VF4. In VF4 fuzzy only worked in -1 or -2 (and was pretty hard at -2 since it required a crouchdash cancel), so obviously a shit ton of moves that would've resulted in a forced choice situation in VF4 are now a lot safer in VF5.

Basically, elbows and a lot of other mids all got beefed up for people who like to throw moves out with impunity, which then leaves the person who simply guarded the move more of a defensive puzzle to unravel.

Specifically, (**WARNING THEORY FIGHTER AHEAD***):

To beat fuzzy-into-eteg the attacker then has to go fishing for the defender to do this sequence to then catch it with something that does a substantial amount of damage or grants a knockdown. What happens after the attacker starts looking for this and guesses wrong? The defender can start opening up the attacker by attacking out of disadvantage or other sneaky things, and the cycle begins anew. So it feels like you're not really getting much out of guarding the crap your opponent throws out at you, and then when you do you're simply left running the risk of getting hit with another random move trying to chase him down looking for Fuzzy-ETEG, which doesn't really rely all that much on reading your opponent (attackers are the ones having to play the delay game to catch the defender) and this defensive sequence is a rote technique.

Strategically/metagame-wise it makes a lot of damaging or advantageous attacks (strings and property moves too probably) a whole fuck of a lot better for just throwing out without watching the opponent's tendencies or using a safer move like a standing jab. Which then can either open a whole bunch of offensive options up for the attacker, or put you in the frankly stupid cat and mouse that results when you're at +6 and below, of course depending on the matchup/move/character.

At the end of the day you still win with superior reads but people who learn to mix up fuzzy-eteg and abare are far more annoying and random to deal with (takes one to know one ) than VF4 players that would've been consistently out-read for doing ETEG a lot or committing to abare without observing and thinking.

 

VF4 had ARE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAcCA8qcGus
http://virtuafighter.com/view.php?section=vf4&file=vf4evo_all_round_escape.php

It mentions in that guide that ARE was vulnerable to circulars and delayed attacks. From my testing, at least without the fast knockdown attack it wouldn't lose to circulars and delayed attacks would only work if delayed very precisely. I never got the chance to use this in competition but in theory ARE seems way overpowered in VF4Evo. I think it got changed (not removed) somewhat in VF4FT.

 

Shou I can see where you're coming from. It is pretty interesting seeing how different things can be depending on your location and experience with the game. But I'm sure we all know that the state of the game in Japan has no bearing on its success in the West. This game will certainly be well-liked (much-played is another thing haha), even by jaded players such as myself. I mean, I read everything you said, and the only thing I can think is -- you think that's bad? The most played games over here are ssf4ae and mvc3...lol. You know things are fucked up when Mortal Kombat 9 is literally the best fighting game that has been released [in the West] since GGXXAC (not an MK9 diss). We could use a VF in any form haha.

 

I think some people in this thread are confused at the message. I'm not telling you to not play FS. In fact, it's the opposite, I encourage you to come up with your own educated view. Buy it, play it to its potential and rep your area but let's be realistic, Sega is not Capcom or Namco. They don't have community managers like Seth or Jason. They don't have expendable capital like Nintendo. They don't have many people who have technical expertise to provide things like online lobbies, replay uploading or other network functionality. They also don't have a new entry cooking in the backroom. They have a modified game from 2006 with DLC items to sell to you. Compare how FS looks and functions compared to SC5, TTT2 or SFXT because that's the comp it's going against in 2012.

I provided the view from Japan as the OP's message is cryptic, from someone who has played competitively here since FT, knows the top local players and has grown with the game & many of you 10 years ago. Remember, I had a dream that the West could play on the same level as Japan even with our inherent environment handicap. I sincerely hope that someone else takes up that torch and pushes the bar higher.

Now for people who think that I've lost my edge. Let me toot my horn and remind you that in vanilla VF5, I used Sarah and have won official tourneys in Japan facing opponents like Kashin, Jin, Honolulu and Itazan. Think about that, the worst character in the game by far against top players using top tier characters. Despite a fierce rivalry (and me wrecking havoc on his card and item selling scheme by beating him & his team of card makers during point tourneys), Honolulu had offered props of me being the best Sarah in Tokyo meaning I probably have a very solid view on the game. I've never heard anyone here say that they like VF5 more than VF4. I've only heard of players wishing to play FT or tb again. In fact, I was speaking to the producer of SBO on reviving FT in the arcades much how like TTT or ST still existed among newer entries in their respective franchises.

The tech that people have in question is stronger than any of you believe (and I discussed it with Myke last night who doesn't really use it either). I recall teaching 2 people in the West this tech, Gutti and Maddy, both who understand why it's so good so ask them for their view too.

One of the great things about previous VFs, was that you couldn't poke for free with good safe moves unlike in other fighters. Only standing P in VF4, let you poke relatively safely as it's plus on block & evade and it's a high move. Moves like elbow and 2P on block required you to take a forced nitaku. There was no fuzzy, you had to make a defensive PRS guess using one of many techniques. In VF5, everyone can use the tech I refer to, fuzzy CD EMTEG, to basically get away from most guesses. Let's have a think about why this is so good. You can't throw it right away, it blocks all immediate mids and highs including circulars, it will evade delayed launchers and you still have the opportunity to break most throw attempts. The weaknesses are as Myke somewhat stated, delayed circular, delayed throw or low move. Now, I don't know of many high level players who are going to throw out a delayed circular or a low move after blocking an elbow. It's simply not a safe option especially if you have a highly punishable circular. Now, doing a delayed throw by dashing may be a viable choice but again risky if your opponent is abare because you can get hit or split. Being able to use this defensive tech after pokes means that the game has become much more about safely poking and baiting whiffs than the aggressive game that could be played in VF4 with force nitaku. It has become a game more like Tekken than VF in this regard.

Now as to VF4 ARE vs this tech, I've used and fought against ARE in Evo and FT. It is very vulnerable to delayed attacks & throws so it's not as strong. You can easily delay a P to interrupt it and it doesn't have the same PRS risk free % as fuzzy CD EMTEG does in vanilla VF5.

Now this is my view, I chose not to give Sega anymore money in what I believe is the Tekken 4 of the VF series. I rather not waste time on a dumbed down game but people are saying beggars can't be choosers. I'm saying that you don't have to beg at all, go do something else. Most of the VF community in Japan has done that as well. Be it other fighting games, other games like L4D or COD BLOPS, or just other pursuits, the simple fact is that there are many empty seats on VF machines around the country. Income from VF hasn't been good since the 1st week FS came out. Ignore the Arcadia reports, those are very small samplings taken at major spots. If I look at my local arcade which is a 5 minute walk from my condo in the heart of Tokyo, there hasn't be a soul around that machine in a long time and they even shut down half of them to save electricity. People even stopped showing up for the tourneys 2 months after FS debuted. The top VF players who are active only go to arcades which offer 2 plays for 100 yen. Arcades who do that are taking it in the ass as for each play, Sega gets 30 yen in commission. That means each coin is giving them 40 yen to pay for expenses and make some money. Needless to say, they aren't making very much and are not likely to take another VF in anytime soon if the lease/commission scheme remains the same. In comparison, TTT2's commission is 8.4 yen on 100 yen.

 

Man glad hardly anyone here uses that technique that I know of. Once they do, I'll start calling VF5fs ass, but until then ignorance is bliss.

 

I have experience battling against the Fuzzy ETEG and I can definitely say it is a very strong technique.

 

Thanks Shou for clearing things up and giving us a clear reason why its fell off. Me and Denkai was more eager to play R than fs for some apparent reason. I guess allgood things come to an end. Just imaginehow many gears 1 players reacted to part 2. Hope Fs is just atool to lure in the crowd then go back to the essencein 6 if there is one.

 

VF4Evo is my favorite game by far. VF5 doesn't even come close. Vanilla VF4 movement is like lightning speed compared to VF5 where it's sadly nerfed.

 

I remember telling people that VF4 is faster overall than VF5 and people had to nerve on this site to tell me it was'nt lol!!! The speed alone in a Evo match was damn near a blur. In R the matches became a bit more faster than 5 but in FS they slowed down again. I wished i was able to play more Evo and possible FT.

 

I knew when we heard about the FS changes, I wasn't going to be a fan of them.

But to be honest, I don't care. I just want to play a new VF game, because any VF I'd rather play over the current selection of fighters like AE. I'm just not feelin SF.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wished i was able to play more Evo and possible FT.</div></div>

Hey, be thankful at least in your region FT was a reality

 

If those are for Sarah in FS, please share them here if you don't mind (and have time). Thanks, man.

 

Oh really? Well that's great. I for one will be pushing VF5:FS despite my colorful personality you all have grown to love, VF is still my favorite game. Once this piece hits the market I want to see everyone hitting it hard. More importantly lets actually show up to some tournaments! Not just gatherings. TOURNAMENTS!

My 2 cents.

 

I question whether this is actually possible or even desirable. Attracting noobs is not Virtua Fighters place in the market. VF is so complex that no one who doesn't already have a background in fighters is going to try it and stick to it.

VF is the best technical fighter on the market. That's what people expect from it. People who play VF want to play fighters for sport. People who play it want the balanced risk/reward ratios in the gameplay. If VF is to grow it has to attract its gamers from people who get tired of the Dragonpunch team, tired of the unbalanced reversals, etc.

Going about growing the game by making it noob-friendly is only going to frustrate the existing fan-base by failing to reward their years of practice, while failing to make in-roads among new comers. It is unrealistic to think that VF can be sufficiently dumbed down to make it noob-friendly. What is possible is to make a few seemingly small, but fundamentally huge changes to the game-play that turn-off the customers you already have. Personally I consider 4 games to be perfect, Metal Gear Solid 4, Uncharted 2, Ninja Gaiden Black/Sigma, and VF4:EVO. As far as I'm concerned very few changes could actually help the game play.

It would also be uncharacteristic of the series if it were to incorporate the kind of flash that we see in other games. Other games have naked girls, panty-shots and flashing-lights, and gawdy-moves that do 66% damage at once. They are attention whores compared to VF. There is no way for VF to attract large number of noobs over the other games.

If VF is to get more gamers then they have to farm other fanbases and pull gamers who want a more balanced, more technical experience.

 

^I know of plenty of changes that could be made to MGS4 and Uncharted 2 to help them (even though I hold them at the top of their class and love them both).

From reading all of this, it seems as different as it all sounds, it's still very much VF. And arcade sales were still huge for the time being. It also sounds like some of the complaints and negative attitude are actually directly related to how SEGA has handled the arcade experience and has resonated down to the players opinion about the game (totally fair and understandable).

I'm still mad amped for the release of FS (even if there isn't another revision). I love the addition of all the moves which even further how a character can be played. I totally get veterans missing the ability to bully those who lacked knowledge on nitakus, or enjoyed the technical reward of multiple TEs, but I don't think either will effect my enjoyment in the long run as it all becomes a thinking/guessing game as the level of play evens out.

Truly though Shou/Mike, and others, thanks for the breakdown and sharing your thoughts and situation.

 

Very interesting. I agree it's a shame older VF's like VF4FT or something very different like VF3 weren't retained in the same way older SF's/KOF's etc have been. It'd be nice to watch but probably wouldn't make much difference to us over here even if VF4FT is the most highly regarded by players here in London (and if it'd got a console release). Just how big were VF3 and 4 in Japan at their peak relative to the competition?

As for ARE I dunno if it was just different in VF4Evo or the properties change if you don't input an attack but beating it even with a delay seemed difficult when I tested (timing is tight). Circulars did not work at all. I'll have to dig the game out and look again but I did not input combo starters just the ultra fast evade cancel with low punch.

I agree with what Myke, Dandy and others have said though I'll support and play as much of FS as I can while it lasts and see what I think of it.

 

Re: Why behind?-VF-bashing reality of malicious si

I agree . I appreciate Sega's efforts beyond words. Final showdown is coming to the US,I can stop lamenting being left on the outside looking in. Party time! However, I don't know how the simplified throw inputs will effect my enjoyment of the game in the long run. There have been other concessions in Vf I've had to deal with in the past , so I'll take this in stride.

VF has always been going in a direction to attract less experienced players. I remember VF2 had throw that ended in P+K, and in VF3 they simplified it to all throws ending ing P+G. VF4 took away the evade button to simplify the button layout. Ueven stages got removed, etc. Maybe simplifying the throw commands was the wrong way to go time will tell. If Sega really wanted to attract n00bs they would change all throw escapes to simple neutral P+G!

I still really don't care for the simple simon throw commands. I mean one minute Sega is doing this, the next they'll have me fighting a Panda or a Kangaroo. How far are they going to take this? If n00b-friendly 3D fighting games are such a sure thing, why did Fighting Vipers die out after one sequel?


The final bedrock basalt analysis is that having an expanded roster and new moves outweighs the loss of some of the techs, in my book.

 

A few points...

- As for VF popularity in Japan in the past, VF3 was considered a bit of a flop since VF2 was the 2nd coming of SF2. Many thought VF3 gameplay plateau'ed early on until the Koreans and Taiwanese came onto the scene and beat the crap out of the Japanese at a now famous tourney. Even with the renewed insterest, it never reached the same level of popularity as VF2. VF4 was bar none, the 2nd coming of Jesus. It is the first game to introduce the whole meta card system that every company uses these days. The concept of using your phone to track stats, change items and find out which arcade famous players were racking up wins at was just amazing.

When I first moved to Japan, every arcade had VF4 and people were always on the machine. Club Sega Shinjuku (aka Nishispo) at that time had around 30 vs setups. Waits at the VF4 location test averaged around 2 hours for 1 play. Nowadays, no one goes to Nishispo for VF. Last time I went, they had 8 setups. My local arcade is down to 1 active setup from 4 when VF5 first released.


- The tech I mentioned does work in FS too but up to -5, not -6. Still very useful for the poking situation but other parts of the game have more problematic situations since E dash cancel was nerfed.


- VF5 never sold well in the arcades. It is a lease only game intended to bilk arcades because Sega thought it would be a megahit. Arcades pay a monthly fee (heard this has gone down to almost nothing since income is so bad) + 30 yen per credit.


- VF4 is a much faster game than VF5 in overall pacing and also thinking. With all of the forced nitaku in VF4, you really have to be at the top of your game mentally and physically to perform while in VF5, I find that I have a lot more time to think about how to break my opponent which has made me stronger in this game as my reflexes start to fail me.


- I think VF from a gameplay perspective has been played out. Unless the overall game design takes a major risk in changing say how the throw system or combos work from a fundamental view, there isn't much more that Sega can do except play with frames.

One of the golden rules of design is that a complex creation can only originate from a simple design. If you start out with a complex set of gameplay, it'll never really exponentially become more indepth because you've already limited it from the start. With VF5, they've taken the PRS system from before and basically put a ton of limitations/conditions around VF4 situations. Each consecutive revision has tried to play with them to make it more indepth but has failed as it only created different situations to muscle memorize not new gameplay system situations to think about.


- Older VFDC vets will remember back in the hey day of VF4, we paid for famous players to visit us. During one of those visits, Famitsu came as well as handful of people who now work in the industry. One of the discussions we had with them was why VF wasn't popular in the West. I offered up Tekken as an example of how the flashiness, character design and mash friendliness made it more of a favorite with Western crowds. I think they've taken that to mind but came up with the wrong changes. I had one of Sega's production heads at my house the other day and he didn't realize that Jacky/Lion sound gay....