Why does everybody think Brad sucks?

Re: Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

yeah i meant slipping right then.

I am uncomfortable with hit-checking that kind of stuff tho. I would be scared that someone would struggle out of the by the time I delay it. But of course, I dont play Brad soooooo............


yeah

 

Re: Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

Well in Dandy's case he could be even worse of as if he was sitting there waiting for the second hit and the Brad player stopped at the first one and launched +> on his camping ass /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

Re: Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

too slow, you can react to it.

 

Re: Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

No, this does not make sense.

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But if you just block the first P and crouch, you're completely safe, because you can either A) punish Brad's throw whiff, or B) just eat the second on a crouch hit and be at +1.

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When do you intend to punish the throw attempt if not waiting? If you try to punish with a , you'll get a CH on you and will start flying right? That means that you are sitting and waiting and hence, I have time to do a longshot.
Other then that, if the first part of the ducking is a CH isn't the second hit garanteed since I get a large advantage on CH ducking ? The move can't suck with that combined with it being delayable (most hits in vf are probably CH's to begin with).
And the key to this whole debate was the fact that you were staggered by the initial which leads me to a "safe" ducking which you can not me out of as compared to a normal ducking. You have two choices, either attack me or don't. If I attack, I will win and I can stop after the first ducking . If you just stand there I can just ignore doing the ducking 's (which are heavily delayble) and throw you.
Other than that further, I fail to see the genious in eating a move that is 22 damage in order to get +1 frame - I'd rather block the whole thing if I blocked the first hit.

Edit: And if I didn't feel like doing the longshot (which I probably would cause it would be fun) I could use other tools like which is E-Class).

Now I'm of to sleep (tired as hell).

 

Re: Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

Why would I punish if I don't see the throw whiff? I might get hit, but it's not gonna be on CH.

+, > can work because throw is fast (8 frames, you know it) blah blah OK? It ends up coming out about the same time as the sencond hit of slipping front if you delay the second . Doing the 1st then waiting until it completely recovers and doing another elbow-class move is just too slow I think. It only works because with throw because throw is hella fast.

 

Re: Hmmm... some thing needs to be said.

Brad is my favourite character. You can do tricky series which makes your opponent shake. Brad's ducking and then is very good. First isn't guaranteed place to throw but the second one is so it's not very wise to use both s except if you know that your character is afraid of throw.

His throw + is quite strange because your opponent is of course scary of + but then he must be also afraid of a throw. Hahahah! That's funny!

 

Yeah but Seriously ffs Dandy...

The game of VF has alot of moves that puts you on disadvantage on normal hit (most of them with a bigger disadvantage then Brads), has it not? Do you go about hoping to get hit by those in order when playing vf to get the frameadvantage ffs? Must be some interesting matches you have against the likes of Aoi then.

No, this is just seriously silly - like wearing a turtle as a hat while mumbling about the war silly man. You block the first hit of the duck and you're sure about the second one coming out and you "neutralize" it by eating it on normal hit according to you, taking the damage, to get +1 frame. "Normal" people block entire series like this and to block both of Brads ducking means he gets -15/16 frames (Yeah, you read it right) making him beyond fucked (that's a free straight in his face if you play Akira or a free + combo if you play Brad etc).

P.S: I want Ayumi Hamasaki for Christmas and will accept no substitutes /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

Re: Yeah but Seriously ffs Dandy...

It's not that I WANT to take the hit to get frame adv, it's that I can be lazy to get out of the two-way guessing-game with out geting CH by the second , or risking EDTEG (actually, that's the best answer).

If you're just going to stand a guard the second , most likely you would've eaten a throw because the second can be delayed so that it comes out AT THE EXACT SAME TIME that an immediate throw would excecute, making it hard to react to. You must guess or option select.

 

Re: Yeah but Seriously ffs Dandy...

There rather is no guessing game to be seen if Brad doesn't atleast get a normal hit going in with the first punch (and giving him an even situation). I think you see this situation wrongly; it's Brad's that's in trouble if he doesn't hit with the first punch - not you. You might aswell do a evade attack (if your that fast that you can evade the second punch ) instead of the EDTEG as, once again, it's he who is in trouble on block and not you. Why even do the gaurd on the end instead of taking the hit on normal and getting that sweet +1frame? j/k man. /versus/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Nah, let's talk about something else instead - this is going nowhere.

Brad's evade game is of the hook and a great strenght of his:
Evade>+: Not many people can combo of a Elbow speed attack but Brad can (and has many options in his combos all togheter). He isn't even TC if it's blocked remember? This move combined with the , another combo launcher (abit slower but if you get a croucher with it or on CH really hurting - really making it nice aswell in the evade situation) can be used very nicely in cojunction with his evades. It's quite easy to hitcheck the + from evades aswell. I didn't play this way alot earlier but once you start incorporating it into your game he will immidiatly start to feel even more powerful and everbody knows that Brads combos are one of his strenghts/redeeming factors so... more combos equals a happier Brad which in turn gives him a even more charming personality. Fuck evade altogheter imo if you haven't already done it. Now if he could only score with Sarah anytime soon and make a Hilton out of the video he'd be absolute top tier in my book *thumbs up*.

Peace Out and Christmas greetings from up North /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

Good stuff so far everybody...

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KiwE quoted somebody else then said:

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Defensively he's not that bad if you know how to use ++ effectively.

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This is not something Brad users use alot imo (it's nice to slip back and kick people who do rising attacks and cute tricks like that and go for the on ch and so on though). When you are in the ++ movement and you get hit you have a CH on you and you really don't move that far back. If you get you're ++> blocked you're -13 frames (!) (and if it was to hit you don't really get much in return - he doesn't even have his catch from it). You said you liked using it against 'ers - do you mean when you get a CH on a and someone by instinct tries to you? In that case the will win over the and is a much better option imo. The ++> has the same properties as a normal but then again if you anticipate something that could hit you and can counter this way you might aswell do . They've also done ++ so you can't go into it from normal combos with him (unlike other directions) as it, of cource, would be a possible opening to abuse. No, I fail to see how this - once mastered - is some defensive tool that Brad can rely on alot (he is good in defense though).

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I have no idea what you are talking about here. First of all, he didn't say ++, he said ++ in general. If you believe that mastering the left, right, and forward versions are not great defensive if not offensive tools, I really don't know what to say. There are so many places where you can put a slipping left/right into somebodies string and then they lose a little less than half life + a ground guessing game. On top of that the forward ducking is ridiculous when mixed with the ... series. So many moves can come out of slipping and ducking that there are way too many opportunities for throws/lows when your opponent freezes up. And with proper conditioning they WILL freeze up. /versus/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

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KiwE quoted Dandy J: [ QUOTE ]
(stagger)>slipping left > mixup seems to be a really strong flowchart IMO.

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Not really. You want to go into the dodge forward once you get the stagger (as in the tactict advice) if anything so you can threathen with a move that they have to block (and can't you from) or the throw. If you slip left you kill of that mindgame as the opponent is pushed back and you can not threathen with the throw so everything is solved by blocking. Slipping left is great against , sure, but even then you can do greater damage with the above mindgame (ducking forward counterhits).

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I agree with this for the most part. The flowchart Dandy J mentioned is still good due to the fact that if they block the kick from slipping, then they are in disadvantage. Who cares if it pushes them away because if they try any attack, it gets stuffed so their only option is to backdash/reverse crouch dash. Then you get free rush down after that. I also like the forced guessing game off of when it staggers as there are a ton of options afterwards. Both are good.

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KiwE quoted UNCONKABLE: [ QUOTE ]
Unuseable for now
MKII Uppercut()-even on normal hit, launch on counter, throwable, and slow. What a shitty move. About the only thing it has going for it is that it slightly moves to the side on execution, but that isn't enough. If I wanted to use a throwable move, why not use and get a launch even on normal hit?

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Well simply because the moves are totally different.
It's done from a crouching position (but can of cource be modified) so it's a handy tool to use if you get a on someone to threathen with (so you don't get 'd back and with no tight timing (you can also do the knee if you spot a CH on your ). Any crouching>rising attack is good for a character. It's also just TC while is punch but nonetheless you use them in different situations anyhow. It's certainly not unuseable =/


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No this is not a handy tool. I mean you are even much better off with a after a hits due to safety and better guessing game on a normal hit. I am still not convinced on the MKII Uppercut as even on normal hit is shitty for Brad due to the vast amount of women characters who have quicker jabs then him.

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KiwE quoted UNCONKABLE:[ QUOTE ]
-wow what a shitty move. Way too slow and unless it is counter hit, you aren't getting too much that you wouldn't get from a nice .

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Well, the combos of his are the best he has and once again this move is just TC as compared to punch. It has it's uses, for example against someone trying a risingattack (tight timing) or as a part of the + guessing game but also worth a try after a (MC), a backstep that is followed (or do + if the distance gets to great) or as he steps in abit while doing it you can, with the correct distance, hurt someone who's crouching and 'ing aswell with it (you need a CH with against a croucher in order to really launch with it) etc.

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Okay, this move takes ten years to come out so if somebody is ing while you are in their grill trying this, or if you are just backdashing then throwing it out trying to anticipate a , that is pretty crappy. There are so many other moves that are much quicker, safer, and accomplish close to the same thing this one does. Whiff a high- +(The Dum Dum Punch), sit jab-do the V, whiff a low or mid-do the V, block a low-Last shot or . The only place I could see this move going in is if they try to evade and you predict it, but even then the Dum Dum punch or is a much better choice because they are quicker, and allow you more time to see the failed evade and punish it instead of guessing on it with a slower move. Also, have you ever even used ? It seems like you think not too much is guaranteed unless it is a counter against a croucher, but even normal hit gives juice juggles.

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KiwE quoted UNCONKABLE:[ QUOTE ]

ducking mid circular kick-I can't tell if I like this or not. Sometimes it is useful at very far range due to its decent range, but the lag on block it horrible so I only tend to use it from its max distance. I would rather throw out a V(,) or slipping (long kick) as they have just as much, if not more range than the circular mid kick.

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Duck + is an exellent tool against TR'ers and no - none of the two moves mentioned have as long a range as it (you move forward while ducking). It's also a great tool to have for him otherwise people could evade against his threaths (the knee and punches) from ducking but since it's full circular it's always there to be able to be used.

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If you look closely, one of the two moves I mentioned does have the range of it. The V moves you forward while ducking as well along with having a hitbox that seems to extend out a bit from the actual pixels of the fist. The slipping K definately has more range than the actual pixel of Brad's foot although not as much as Ducking +. I don't usually use this against TR's, but I will go ahead and give it a shot.

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KiwE quoted UNCONKABLE:[ QUOTE ]

Any slipping/ducking series mixed with etc

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I don't think it's that hard to see the difference between the slipping/ducking as it is the stepping (and there's an audioclue - the Sssh that you never get tired of hearing =) ). Brad hasn't got any really good moves to modify from stepping etc. either. Stepping is always good though if you know how to use it but he hasn't got many moves to modify for example as his is almost a joke.

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You are kidding me right? His slipping/ducking is as quick as an attack along with having certain evading properties. Just because you can hear a noise, doesn't mean you can always have an option planned out. Okay, let's say you are great at hearing the swaying noise, so what are you going to do when you hear it? Don't low P or you will get counterhit by that time, don't evade because the high hook will catch it, and don't block expecting my attack or you will get thrown. I know I will not guess right everytime, but it is used as a tool to condition the opponent with to aleviate my having to "guess" in the first place, and I believe it is a very powerful one. There are plenty of options from slipping/ducking + modified stepping so I disagree with you there. Also, I agree with you that the turn around kick is almost a joke, but you don't need moves to modify your slipping/ducking + modified stepping series to make it good. The only use I can think of for that kick is to end a juggle with it or get into backturned from far away, but even then, his backturned options are the greatest compared to some of the other characters.

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KiwE quoted: [ QUOTE ]
Sounds good but you can also break the wall after a ++, wall stagger.

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The point wasn't to break the wall. It was to break and knockout of the ring by just landing a CH on a move that's low and isn't even TC if you follow thru with both kicks (of which one is heavily delayable). I already mentioned that ++, what I think about ++, other then that.

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I completely agree with you here. If my opponent is against the wall, there are much better options than that.

Also, the argument Dandy J and KiwE are having about the ducking[p]~throw/ducking[p][p] is a silly one. The delayed [p] is the same timing as you recovering from the first [p] and then doing a throw so I doubt you could pop a last shot in there because it is just too slow to start. I believe it is in Brad's favor even if he is at a disadvantage because that canned [p] waiting to come out can really cause a lot of people to freeze. Any series that contains a canned followup with a mid-ender, doing damage or floating, and recovering fairly quickly after the first attack is blocked is good shit to me.

I want everybody to keep posting, though, because this is some great discussion. Peace out and Happy Holidays from the CORE of the midwest, ST muthafuckin' L! /versus/images/graemlins/grin.gif /versus/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

conk out,
not Montgomery Burns, just...

BRAD BURNS!!!!

 

Re: Good stuff so far everybody...

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I have no idea what you are talking about here. First of all, he didn't say ++, he said ++ in general.

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No he didn't. Please read posts with more attention.
There is a problem when copying commands and pasteing them from texts and the didn't tag along in my post. I hope you now "have an idea of what" I'm talking about then?

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I agree with this for the most part. The flowchart Dandy J mentioned is still good due to the fact that if they block the kick from slipping, then they are in disadvantage. Who cares if it pushes them away because if they try any attack, it gets stuffed so their only option is to backdash/reverse crouch dash.

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Or evade as it is not fully circular and not anything else you can threathen with from your slipping right at that distance. Vf is about threathening with throws or strikes on staggers, it's a fundamental rule of the game.

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No this is not a handy tool. I mean you are even much better off with a after a hits due to safety and better guessing game on a normal hit. I am still not convinced on the MKII Uppercut as even on normal hit is shitty for Brad due to the vast amount of women characters who have quicker jabs then him.

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The will win against someone (so will ) who tries to you back (which happens often), and yeah: so will . I find it funny that you'de rather take a shitty stagger over a combo though - damage wise they can't compete can they? If there's ever a situation when you get a CH on - this is it. That's why ppl have risingattacks in the first place, to on CH hit put a 50/50 between the throw or the risingattack - that's why it's always an asset to have for any character (no it's not Godlike as Kages is though but it's certainly not useless). I'd rather take my combo (but of cource you can mix stuff up) and that damage it brings over a stagger with nothing garanteed after anyday. You complain about the being even on normal hit in this situation - well, is disadvantage on normal hit. Meaning? If you go into a ducking will beat everything you can threathen with exept the canned . Better guessing game on normal hit? No not really. All in all it's a question about high risc vs high damage as most things are I guess.

Very important Edit: Oh and <font color="yellow">Btw Conk </font> (just sobered up for a sec);
(CH)() owns your (CH) flowchart so hard it isn't even funny (didn't like the question if I had ever done a ya fucking apple!) Now, moving on:

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If you look closely, one of the two moves I mentioned does have the range of it.

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No. Just accept that Ducking + is the move he has with the longest range or try it in trainingmode until you do. Stop saying this now or Santa won't be bringing you any gifts this year.

Peace Out.

 

Re: Good stuff so far everybody...

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KiwE said:

Or evade as it is not fully circular and not anything else you can threathen with from your slipping right at that distance. Vf is about threathening with throws or strikes on staggers, it's a fundamental rule of the game.

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Actually, I was thinking about this earlier. If they start evading slipping right , could you do this instead?

+>slipping right>slipping left to catch their evade?

Basically I'm thinking that they see you slipping right and try to evade the , and you just slip left and do as a delay attack? Can somebody test this?

 

Re: Good stuff so far everybody...

No... a slip takes time and so does the attack after it.

Edit: Since this is turning into the Brad thread I'm curious as to how people play the Slip Right on gaurd advantage. I feel I'm having a hard time diverting from the + etc so curious as to if anybody tries ducking or CD'ing after it or just curious in general as to how people react to the different situations it bring on gaurd and on hit.

 

Re: Good stuff so far everybody...

You can always CD and throw if you think they will try to backdash~evade your +. Just try to mix it up (slip left -> , ducking -> throw, , +, even delayed + sometimes...).

Obviously, the slipping moves are much more effective with a slight advantage. Slipping left/right works so much better when you block uncounterable moves like elbow or sidekick because of the built-in delay and evasive properties. That's why I don't think he needs a fast mid crescent. I'd rather block something, then use slip right -> and not have to worry that much about being evaded or MC'ed with or standing .

 

Re: Good stuff so far everybody...

Man I am the only one who thinks that ++ is good. Imo it's one of his best setup up tool and defensive tools, it doesn't evade everything (thank god) but it evades alot of close range moves. In open stance you can make yoho whiff for exemple and you can use jab and low punch ++ for poking and setups. Oh well atleast I like using it but I'm probably playing him wrong. /versus/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

Re: Good stuff so far everybody...

+++ would be good if the followup was safe. As for the followup, it's....alright. I mean, it leads into slipping options, but it's just not gonna cut it. He needs a 15-16 frame mid that staggers crouchers and is maybe -4 or -5 on block, and leads into slipping. Pretty much a slower version of his + or something.

 

Re: Good stuff so far everybody...

LOL do you play Paul or a similar character with a back sway in Tekken? I think it's better for Brad to back dash and attack (+, +, etc.) instead.

 

Re: Good stuff so far everybody...

WTF do I seem stupid to you!!!???

I play Jin and do 2,1, of course.

 

Re: Good stuff so far everybody...

I liked Hworangs jumping back kick in Tekken btw (used to play Jin/Hworang/Bryan). Don't care about it's stats - it just really looked cool / like irl. Hworang > Sarah so hard it's not even funny and that's why I'll never play her as a character.

 

Re: Good stuff so far everybody...

I always liked Jun and Lei Wulong...