Why fighting games suck

Don't forget me too

Dude this is the most insightful thing I've read from you in a while. Good point. If these games more clearly showed why you lost and how you could win the next time, then beginners wouldn't be so intimidated by the games.

 

VF4 showed how many punches, kicks, etc you used, and what you needed to do more (or less) of... Does that count??? I know if Sega came through with that replay that had the frame counter on their next "console" fighter, it would be a plus.

 

People are intimidated by reading , pure and simple. Every fighting game that comes out has a strategy guide released the same day. They explain the game system and all the shortcuts clearly. The average person is too lazy to even read the instruction manual to their TiVo , and can't program it to record.

The author used DBZ as an example of why fighting games suck. Using DBZ Raging Blast as an indictment of fighting games sucking is like using Mario Cart to condemn racing games.

 

I'd say losing in fighting games is the most self-explanatory loss you can have in a video game.

In an FPS you might say, "Oh, he shot me and I died." but you don't have any further insight into it than that, unless they tell you over the mic how they set you up.

In a fighting game you might say, "he took all my health before I took his." You might not understand that exactly either but they can explain how they did it just the same. Both concepts are extremely simple in their own right.

The major and critical flaw of his entire article is it's totally generic. You could literally put almost ANY type of game in the blanks and his argument would sound the exact same. He doesn't make any type of detailed case against fighting games, he just states his opinion on them as fact and then tries to back it up with more opinions. There's nothing concrete in his essay at all really

 

I completely agree with the camp that basically says "fighting games are not intuitive to learn." You can't learn frames by intuition and must be learned. You can't learn evade by intuition and must be learned. You can't learn throw escape by intuition and must be learned. The list goes on and on. VF is not any better than Tekken or SF in this regard, and arguably worse.

Sure other games do have their esoteric info that need to be learned for competitive play. But you really do not need to learn bullet penetration, explosive radius and armor types in a FPS game to play at a mid-level and have fun. While RTS have more esoteric stats to learn but they can be simplified without going through headache inducing numbers. i.e. plasma infantry weapons do 50% more damage against heavy armor and blah blah. . . well, you could choose to memorize all these or just simply know that the Wraith Guards do extra damage against the Space Marines, which you can learn through experience after only a few games.

So, yes, in that regard the fighting games are no longer intuitive and they "suck". Even if you are a Muay Thai world champion in real life, you still have to learn frames to make sense of VF or Tekken.

 

Exactly. Why did you lose that health?

What choices were you making? Why did you make that choice in that situation? How did you get in this situation to begin with? Is this a situation I want to be in? Did my opponent put me in this situation or did I? . . . etc

Personally i try to always be the one putting myself in situations.


The list goes on.

 

Well fighting games are definitely much less intuitive than FPS games, hell every game is, point and shoot, and reload it doesn't get much simpler.
I think strategy games are just as lacking intuitiveness, I mean you have to memorize a lot of stuff, build order, units order, for practically all the races, memorize what units hurt what the most, memorize all the upgrades and how good they are and for what units to really play decently. And theres heros and micromangement and hotkeys as well and the maps and all sorts of stuff.

RPGs aren't very intuitive either, but you have 30 hrs+ to learn for them usually so no one really cares and there about the story regardless.

But nonetheless fighting games= commitment= no quick fix in beating the game=people don't want to play so simple really.
Why master a fighting game when you could play 34234 games in that time. Well I think VF is just too fun and intense to pass up thats my reason, and I like mastering things, but most people don't.

 

Well FPS are definitely much less intuitive than fighting games, hell every game is, pick Lei Fei, hit some buttons, it doesn't get much simpler.

 

I know you know better than this, so I'm assuming you're being scarcastic

What other genre has movelists where the number of moves to be mastered is between 100-to-150+ moves?

FPS's don't have combos, sequences, or any serious movelists to speak of. RPG's can have simple movelists, and combos, but nothing approaching fighting games.

To play any of the top tier fighting games at intermediate to advanced levels requires more skill than any other kind of video game. [/size]

 

guys, please take a look at this video, you cant jump to 2:30 into the video to cut the chat (or just watch the whole thing if you have time). the game is quake live (quake 3...), if after watching this you think fps are simple (the REAL competitive fps games like QL), then i dunno what to say...

this is just not a nice match, they explain beautifully whats going.
<object width="560" height="340"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XdkDjsBiO58"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XdkDjsBiO58" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="560" height="340"> </embed></object>

 

Well okay higher level anything is pretty complicated, but the main thing is EARLY/MIDDLE TIER learning curve. This is what you see online in public servers and random play. In VF just basic play is very hard to reach, you have to understand evades, high mid low system, and memorize most of your mains moves. Thats a shitton more than memorizing basic shooting controls, and what all the weapons do which is all you really need for any fps like quake or CoD. There are usually only 5ish types in COD type FPS, and around 10 in UT/Quake, which is nothing compared to the moves in VF.

But as someone else said, even in pretty high level play VF, you don't need to memorize frames at all.

And about the quake video, i kinda got sucked in and watched all of it lol. Their reflexs and accuracy are just REDICULOUS and they manage to keep track of item-times really well too. Pretty damn strategic.

 

Tengu, Tengu, Tengu

Just learning and being able to perform all the moves in a characters movelist requires memory,dexterity and a certain amount of speed. There are still a couple of moves in Lei-Fei's list that are challenging to me to pull off in a real match.

Now to be able to combine challenging moves into combos or sequences obviously requries even more memory, dexterity, and speed.

In some cases we're talking about 100's of moves. Tengu this just aint the case for FPS.

FPS might have duck, roll, jump, turn left, turn right, reload
, maybe laydown, and crawl but that's it. A running back in
Madden has a bigger movelist than most FPS characters

One of the reasons FPS and RPG have such mass appeal is the fact that there isn't a lot to learn in order to be successful and have a lot of fun playin the game. They typically don't require a great deal of dexterity,speed, and split decision making.

There's virtually no stamina requirement in FPS. You can play 5,10 hours and not be tired (maybe bored, but not tired). On the other hand if you are playing against intermediate to advanced players in any top tier fighting game, STAMINA starts to be a factor after about 1 hour of continuous matches.

Psychological toll factor:. Getting pwned in FPS does not take the psychological toll that it does in fighting games. You get shot, you respawn, and look for revenge. You don't hear about pullers in FPS. getting killed is no big deal so players don't pull. On the other hand, loss in fighting games is much more personal in fighting games players will rip the network capable right out of the wall trying to avoid a loss. They will turn the gaming console off right in the middle of match (risking data loss) just to avoid the humilation of losing. Just dealing with the phsychological toll of losing requires more skill in a fighting game than it does in FPS

That means that fighting games require far more intestinal fortitude, far more mental strength.

Like Myke said earlier, most people suck at fighting games.

One of the reasons for this is that fighting games require more
work, more effort, take a greater psychological toll than other kinds of games. You can totally suck and lose in a racing game and still feel like your having fun. But no one (except me) enjoys getting their arse beat round after round, match after match. And get beat you will unless you've put in a considerable amount of time and effort to develop and enhance your skill.

Real Time Strategy (RTS) are the only kind of games that even come close to fighting games in terms of the scope of skills required

 

Combo inputs definitely take skill. That shit can be REALLY hard sometimes. But also, just like shooting freethrows in basketball, it takes even more skill to do it ever single time, on command. That takes a lot of practice, hand-eye coordination, repetition and also good muscle memory.

That kind of stuff is definitely skill-based. It's just like any other skill that requires you to do it just right, many times, to be truly good. It's a skill you have to practice and nurture much like learning to aim in an FPS game. The more you play and practice, the more accurate you shoot. That's how you get better.

 

I honestly wish I hadn't made this thread now.

 

Someone close this thread, please?

 

Cus he be trolling.

 

Obviously all games take some form of skill or the other, even rhythym games. The author took his opininated stance because he probably grew up in an era where fighting games were losing relevance .


    One reason fighting games went into a decline was they were too slow to integrate online multiplayer.  VF director  Daichi Katagiri is full of shit. When PS3 VF5 was announced, and the press asked him why isn't it online on the PS3, he said "VF5 online just isn't Virtua Fighter"  because the whole VF fighting system is frame based more than any other fighter .  Every move always executes at the same amount of frames(unfortunately  real factors like fatigue and injury don't effect move speed in VF land), so players can predict what speed they can respond to counter attack.  According to him, if lag put moves off by one frame, it would destroy his fighting system.  That snobbish elitism kept VF5 at a low 250,000 unit sales in the US  and only 80,000 unit sales in its home country.   People flocked more to shooting games and MMOs because they were online, and playing games competitively with other people is  more fun,  the larger the groups the better.     The tiny cabals of lonely nerds who played fighting games together were not enough to support the genre and keep it in it's blockbuster status. 

Only DOA Ultimate had the sense and the balls to take their game online first. Dreamcast came with a modem built in, but Virtua Fighter 3tb wasnt online.   VF4 EVO flaked and pussied out, SF Alpha 3 didn't do it,  Tekken 5 failed to go online,  So did Soul Calibur 2 and 3.  And the user bases  for those games shrunk smaller and smaller while shooting games, with online multiplayer grew bigger and bigger followings.  If you don't have a huge group of friends to play fighting games with, it gets played a lot less and eventually goes into to used bin.    The wanning of the fighting game dynasty can be attributed to failing to keep up with the times.