Why fighting games suck

He had credability?

 

This needs more love btw. A+

 

Falcon 4.0 is the hardest, most complicated game ever made in history then.

 

Since masterpo's assertion, I've been reading this topic. As an actual programmer; not just some commenter or some one who's seen enough code. And I have been really disappointed by quite a few comments I've read. Mostly because some of them(but not all) fail the VFDC code of conduct rules 2. & 3 imo.

Whether or not people agree with his assertion is their decision(like Myke & Cuz), but some of the other bang wagon comments look like thinly-veiled cyber-bullying; or coming dangerously close to a point where it is no longer tongue-in-cheek banter. Especially a comment that some how ridicules the way he thinks; which is no different to ridiculing someone for their looks.

It isn't shocking for someone to be a lateral thinker. Or program neural networks (as I believe he said he does) and then look to scientific analysis or other branches of science to reinforce/substantiate his hypothesis.

I for one, can understand some of his reasoning; and visualising the difference in code branching in my head between the two genres. But equally I can't find a suitable worded explanation why I partially agree with his comment.

The best I can say, is that I believe the absence of lucky railshots/rockets in VF5 makes it a game nearer to pure skill(like chess imo). And the lack of buffered inputs in FPS means that at any time, “crazy things can happen” video quote; including lucky kills. By comparison the element of luck in VF5 is actually described on this website as just a lack of Yomi by the so-called unlucky player.

My assertion would be: If luck plays a smaller part in the outcome of a game, then the game requires a higher proportion of skill.

Comparing proportions of skill between apples & oranges is still subjective. As described in Myke's description of a physical dexterity/stamina competition; to quickly press a button using a computer counter as the adjudicator.

But it does at least allow for a comparison in skill proportions, when there is general agreement that luck is the absence of skill, and that (1v1) VF5 is equivalent to (1v1) Q3a.

 

isn't your assertion that games with luck built in are less skill based than games without markedly different from "complex code = harder game and more skill required from user"?

 

How is any rail shot 'luck' in Quake? You either hit it or you didn't.

 

Mumbojumbo; he speaks it.

 

Shit, I wish I was on the Bang Wagon

Funny how a daft article has caused such a thread.

 

A shot to nothing with the rail can kill in q3a.

I don't believe the two comments are the same.

I said I partially agreed, and couldn't find a panacea like comment; and I could still be swayed by a convincing counter argument.

I also wouldn't use the term complex code; I would be influenced by the amount of deterministic winning branches. But assuming FPS shooters translate unbuffered input/s to user actions, none of the code branches are deterministic, because the user action gets evaluated in the updateGameEngine (callback) function before we know it is a winning branch.

By contrast a fighting can have guaranteed advantage, which means the skill to control which branch you end up, guarantees success; even before the updateGameEngine function has evaluated the user action (unless online).

But is the control of the mind-game worth more than the physical skill to control the mouse point quaternion vector? This is some of my grey area in masterpo's assertion that results in the apples and pears comparison.

 

What?

 

As a professional programmer, not to mention a rational human being, I say masterpo is, and always has been, full of crap.

If I were to elaborate further, he is one of those annoying pseudo-serious types who write crapload based on his skill of extrapolating buttload of non-sense, non-sequiter, pseudo-logics and fallacy based on small amounts of facts or pseudo-facts. He is only tolerated here because of his obvious enthusiasm for VF, if not he would/should have been laughed off long time ago.

 

he is amusing at times

 

Honestly if you haven't read the article on the actual site and you have more than 5 posts on this thread. Click on the article since he supplied you all with 16 pages of quality entertainment

 

It pays to read the first page of this thread before posting.
DO NOT click the link to that piece of shit article , it's on the first few pages of this thread anyway.

 

Man I should do one on why FPS's are not games and make bank.

 

Ditto

This thread is off the rails hilarious.

 

To be clear. I have no beef with Cuz. He's good people.
And I absolutely love Assassin's Creed and I'm looking forward to Brotherhood in November.

Perhaps my assertions have some ambiguity in them and that is my fault. For instance when I say Fighting games require more skill than FPS. There are some terms that need to be clarified. What do I mean by Fighting games? What do I mean by skill? What do I mean by FPS? We could also question what do I mean by 'more'.

For the purposes of this discussion when I say skill I'm referring to:

1) memorization and recall of game inputs/commands/theory for
all playable characters/entities
2) physical stamina
3) mental stamina
4) speed and dexterity of hands/fingers/wrists
5) speed and duration of hand-eye coordination
6) knowledge of offensive strategies
7) knowledge of defensive strategies
8) spatial reasoning
9 strength and conditioning of hands, fingers and forearms
10) Mastery of either pad or stick
11) The ability to execute any/all moves for any/all characters
under stress(or duress) during intermediate to advanced
competition
12) Anticipation
13) Focus

When I say Fighting game I am really talking about top tier 3D fighters(although the same probably goes for top tier 2D) 3D Fighters such as VF, Tekken, UFC2010, SC IV, DOA

When I say FPS I'm referring to games like DOOM, COD4, MW2, Resistance Fall of Man.

Once again.

IMHO

FPS require SKILL!

BUT

Fighting Games require more Skill

Of course this is using my definition of skill (which might be different from yours) or the dictionary's

The size and complexity of the average movelist of a top tier 3d fighter compared to the movelist of the shooter in a FPS alone is enough to prove my point. If you watch the hands of someone entering a ten hit combo in Tekken, or 3 or 4 hit combo in VF compared to watching the hands of someone pulling off sniper shot in COD4 then it will be obvious that the hand speed requirement for a 3d Fighters is far far far beyond any such requirment for FPS.


For those of you following the source code discussion, the complexity and size of the movelists relate directly the inputs
of the program and to the amount of work the user has to do.

I'm not mad any of yall, just disappointed that you're arguing against the obvious in your own sport.

Even if you apply a simple taste test. Would you rather have the the best kill ratio in a FPS on the planet? Or would you rather be the #1 Fighter in any fight game on the planet?

From a popularity point of view maybe the best kill ratio in a FPS wins out. But if your #1 player in VF, or Tekken, or SC, or UFC2010, etc on the planet you intrinsically have far more respect from your brethren than you would from a FPS because the fighting community knows the level of skill it takes to be the best.

Some of you disagree with me because its me (that's kewl) but use your common sense on this one. Here's a hypothetical scenario.

A brand new top tier 3d fighting game has been released. With as much sophistication as a VF or Tekken.

A brand new top tier FPS fighting game has been released. With as much sophistication as COD4 or Medal of Honor

Let say you have never seen or played either one. Lets also say you're given 15 minutes to learn either one. You will compete in a tournament for the one you've chosen against intermediate players who do know both games. Tournament winners take home 100k. Which genre will you choose? FPS of course because as fighting game fans we know you can't learn a fighting game in 15 minutes and we can't get good at a fighting game in 15 minutes. On the other hand in the FPS at least you have a chance

Folks, just admit I'm right on this one

 

I think we'll never convince each other, so I'm not going to pursue this conversation. But I will comment on this.

Were we in the same region, I'd love nothing more than go for a drink with you fella. I disagree with you, but I have no qualms with you at all.

 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not mad any of yall, just disappointed that you're arguing against the obvious in your own sport. frown</div></div>

Just cause you play a game doesn't mean you have to be blind. That's fanboyism. Most (atleast many) VF players are above this cause they're definatly not playing the most popular fighter out there. So they've made an educated choice. Also, many don't play just VF exclusivly. I really think that, since you haven't played a good FPS on a somewhat highlevel, this would humble you. It doesn't. You have no idea what it takes to compete at the top in something like Q3A. I get sick of hearing about 'lucky rails' and the likes here. Nobody has ever fired a railgun without the intent to kill someone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But if your #1 player in VF, or Tekken, or SC, or UFC2010, etc on the planet you intrinsically have far more respect from your brethren than you would from a FPS because the fighting community knows the level of skill it takes to be the best. </div></div>

This is a flat out lie. I know people who are / have been top Swe Q3 players and let me tell you you know nothing. People would suck their cocks if they asked it in a friendly tone. They sign autographs. Who the fuck cares if you're nr 1 in UFC2010 seriously? Why are you talking about communties which you, in your own words, know nothing about?

I have 2 questions for you;

1) Do you agree that in order to be top 5 (within your country) in a game like CS / Q3 you have to put in more time (work) into the game then to be so in VF? Your statments in your last post seem to think this isn't the case.

2) What do you think is the hardest - to play a perfect match in VF (doing the correct guesses / choices over and over) or in a 10-20min match in Q3?

As it's probably clear by now I definatly think FPS games require more skill. There simply is no margin for error and you play on marginals on an entirily different level. Something equal of a SF4 player missing a link would mean the game is over in an FPS. Still people can do comebacks in fightinggames though. They (FPS's) definatly require more hand/eye coordination. I also think they require higher reflexes.

You're running around 20min not knowing what to expect trying to hit a few pixels on your screen in a flash of an eye. In fightinggames you know (or should know) what to expect if you're not a scrub. You also have buffering (most of the time) to help you. The higher player base also leads to stronger players at the top (it is like this in all games) so you need to work much harder to compete. I could take a person with average intelligence, teach nitaku a few combos and not to be overly aggressive and he would be a threat (note, threat not win). I could do this for instance in Tekken using Bob mixing up HS and crackerjack or something similar. There's no way you could do something like that in an FPS shooter, you need tons and tons and tons of experience, practice of aim, learning timing, learning movement, learning maps. Do you know how much work it is just to learn a map and priorities, ways of moving about it, interceptionpoints etc? It's laughable to me that you talk about how hard it is to learn a movelist as if that is where the skill lies. Learning a single map in an FPS requires more work. Hell you can discard 4/5's of your movelist if you just know it beforehand in most of the cases. Upsets happen in fightinggames all the time. No names that aren't in good clans don't come and win tourneys in FPS's.

FPS+RTS skill >>> Fightinggame skill. If this is painful for consoleheads to hear, I appologize. I really don't think it's even an argument.

 

Just cause you play a game doesn't mean you have to be blind. That's fanboyism. Most (atleast many) VF players are above this cause they're definatly not playing the most popular fighter out there. So they've made an educated choice. Also, many don't play just VF exclusivly. I really think that, since you haven't played a good FPS on a somewhat highlevel, this would humble you. It doesn't. You have no idea what it takes to compete at the top in something like Q3A. I get sick of hearing about 'lucky rails' and the likes here. Nobody has ever fired a railgun without the intent to kill someone.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But if your #1 player in VF, or Tekken, or SC, or UFC2010, etc on the planet you intrinsically have far more respect from your brethren than you would from a FPS because the fighting community knows the level of skill it takes to be the best. </div></div>

This is a flat out lie. I know people who are / have been top Swe Q3 players and let me tell you you know nothing. People would suck their cocks if they asked it in a friendly tone. They sign autographs. Who the fuck cares if you're nr 1 in UFC2010 seriously? Why are you talking about communties which you, in your own words, know nothing about?

I have 2 questions for you;

1) Do you agree that in order to be top 5 (within your country) in a game like CS / Q3 you have to put in more time (work) into the game then to be so in VF? Your statments in your last post seem to think this isn't the case.

2) What do you think is the hardest - to play a perfect match in VF (doing the correct guesses / choices over and over) or in a 10-20min match in Q3?

As it's probably clear by now I definatly think FPS games require more skill. There simply is no margin for error and you play on marginals on an entirily different level. Something equal of a SF4 player missing a link would mean the game is over in an FPS. Still people can do comebacks in fightinggames though. They (FPS's) definatly require more hand/eye coordination. I also think they require higher reflexes.

You're running around 20min not knowing what to expect trying to hit a few pixels on your screen in a flash of an eye. In fightinggames you know (or should know) what to expect if you're not a scrub. You also have buffering (most of the time) to help you. The higher player base also leads to stronger players at the top (it is like this in all games) so you need to work much harder to compete. I could take a person with average intelligence, teach nitaku a few combos and not to be overly aggressive and he would be a threat (note, threat not win). I could do this for instance in Tekken using Bob mixing up HS and crackerjack or something similar. There's no way you could do something like that in an FPS shooter, you need tons and tons and tons of experience, practice of aim, learning timing, learning movement, learning maps. Do you know how much work it is just to learn a map and priorities, ways of moving about it, interceptionpoints etc? It's laughable to me that you talk about how hard it is to learn a movelist as if that is where the skill lies. Learning a single map in an FPS requires more work. Hell you can discard 4/5's of your movelist if you just know it beforehand in most of the cases. Upsets happen in fightinggames all the time. No names that aren't in good clans don't come and win tourneys in FPS's.

FPS+RTS skill >>> Fightinggame skill. If this is painful for consoleheads to hear, I appologize. I really don't think it's even an argument.

</div></div>

U R correct, I'm not up on the FPS community. So you're right there I don't really know how much respect you get if you're on top in the world of FPS (sucking cocks) wow! I don't think we would get that in the fighting game community. Even our number one players couldn't get the fans to suck their cocks. So if that's the case in FPS, I stand corrected. All my experience with shooters is in 3rd person shooters. I made the assumption that 3rd person shooters and FPS required about the same amount of skill. Perhaps I'm wrong. I do know a lot though about learning maps, moving about, priorities, weapon choices, capabilities, damage levels, ammo counts, tactical take downs. But primarily in 3rd person shooters. I know what its like to compete at a high level in MGO so I assume COD4, Q3 wouldn't be much different am I wrong?


KiwE, I'm curious, are you a top tier VF player? Meaning have you competed in won against advanced players in VF? I'm just curious.

Maybe I've stumbled across something that I'm talented at. I pick up shooters, and IMHO they require skill, but not as much a fighting games. I perform reasonably right off the bat in online shooters, so perhaps I have an unrealistic view of FPS.

KiwE seriously top Swe Q3 players sign autographs and could get their cocks sucked by the fans, wow maybe in this particular instance I'm wrong. If your FPS gaming skill could lead to cock sucking by the fans... Viva la FPS

Definitely I apologize to the FPS players out there, I had no idea. Cock Sucking... Nope Fighting game champs don't have that opportunity (At least I don't think they do) I'm not a top tier player so I Can't be sure. I do know the fighting game stars sign autographs, but even if they were polite I don't think the fans would suck their cocks.

KiwE are their any female fans in the FPS Q3A community?